Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

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Shellandshilo1956

Active member
A question to shelly, old folks shouldn't take the vaccine as well? They are better off having covid rather than the vaccine? Or those with "comorbidities"?
Since you neither have the knowledge, or the inclination to answer even ONE of my questions, let me make this simple and clear.

If you are mentally, physically, medically, emotionally, or socially challenged, then get the jab. If you feel that by infecting yourself with a disease, that 99% of the population don't have, just for its therapeutic value, then get the jab. If you are already dying from a whole host of age related, or other serious and chronic comobidities, then you should talk to your doctor first, before getting the jab.

But whatever rationale you can fabricate, being forced or coerced should NOT be one of them. We are now the first country putting this poison into 5-11yo. YEA 🇦🇺!! Parents used to always err on the side of caution, when it came to the health of their children. Not anymore!! Whatever is in this shit, will now be in these kids, FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. "Good on ya mom!".
 
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SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
I have a pretty long attention span.



The "death rate" is based entirely on the "death numbers" and the total infection numbers Seth. Both matter, vaccinated or not. So, I disagree.



Agree. I have been trying to focus people on the mortality rate, recovery rates, and both rates in context with the entire population. A deceitful claim would be to look at a result, take ONE factor as the only causality, and dismiss/ignore any other relevant causalities. Like you are doing now. Maybe you can show me why a vaccinated immune system is overall better than an unvaccinated immune sytem? Without using stats! These stats/data show only a partial truth. You are just trying to pass these results off as the whole truth. This is just untrue.



I don't know why you are trying to complicate simplicity with numbers. The mortality rate doesn't give a brass razoo about whether or not you are vaccinated. Or, about the pecentage of vaxxed and unvaxxed that are in the society. It is based only on the percentage of people who have died with Covid-19, and the number of people who have acquired Covid-19. Whether a person is vaccinated or not, they still must use their immune system. Therefore, we need to look at other factors that have contributed to these deaths. Which I have already listed. And, this IS about the numbers of deaths Seth. Not about these manufactured hypotheticals, and crystal-balling "what if's" sophistry.



The problem that we both know about stats/data, is that they can be manipulated to mean anything you want. I wonder what the stats in the hospitals of other states would show? Politicians use data to spin any story they want. How many of these infected unvaxxed people were admitted to hospital because of their Covid-19? Or, for other reasons that were incidental to the disease? How many people were held in hospital only as a result of being tested positive for Covid-19? All that is relevant here, are the numbers of Covid-19 victims in the ICU's, who are on respirators, or what were the real comorbidities that contributed to their death? The rest can create whatever optics you want.

I can tell you the story of the father from perth, who wasn't allowed(or the grandmother) to take his child out of a hospital in Queensland North, after the mother had died. Just because he(and the grandmother) weren't vaccinated. How cruel is that?? Be jabbed or lose your child. The child was sent to family services awaiting foster care. It took almost a month before the child could be reunited with the father and grandmother. The father opted to be jabbed. Just madness!

I have read your entire post. Clearly, you have selected and interpreted these stats/data, to accomodate your cognitive bias. Others(like me) can interpret these stats differently. You are just using "abductive" reasoning to justify your own probable conclusion. Based only on the facts that you have selected. For example, if the soup is still hot on a table, you might conclude that the owner will return soon. But there may be other possible conclusions, right?

Like another member of the forum stated, you have already been vaccinated, so there is no way that you will stop taking more vaccines if you are told to. Even if 100% of people were vaccinated, and were still being infected, you would just keep rationalizing that we must still need more. This is not science, this is social conditioning! So, I'm sure that you could find the stats to prove that those with short toenails, are more at risk of dying from Covid-19 than those with long toenails. And, if you were a pedicurist, I'm sure that this fact would have some relevance to you. But not to me.

So again, the only things that matters with any pathogen infecting the population, is how many people recover, and how many people die. The rest is just manufactured hype, snowballing towards insanity. Is this really the Australia that you want your kids to live in?? Fuck no!!



Totally agree with this. What is your view about the mandate to vaccinate 5year olds?



Not sure what you wanted to point out. Other than denial and that you disagree with me, what specifically did you want to point out?
Shell, the topic of my post to you was whether or not the vaccine is effective based upon the statistics.

I was trying to point out that the statistics you quoted SUPPORT the argument that the vaccine works. I was trying to point out that, as a group, vaccinated people tend to fare better with the disease than unvaccinated people do.

And my question to you is whether or not you agree. I’m not asking about other issues, like freedom of choice or how the vaccine works in the body, or whether 5 year olds should be vaccinated.

The sources I gave you don’t give just numbers of patients. They give numbers of patients PLUS numbers for vaccinated and unvaccinated PLUS the patients’ outcomes in the two groups (vaxxed or unvaxxed)

From those numbers we can create a RATE for each group. And from those rates we can draw conclusions.

Additionally, we may look at those rates from different places and see if they are consistent with each other.

We couldn’t do that a year ago. Now we can.

I thought the statistics from Washington State were well done because they broke it all down by
cases, hospitalizations, and deaths by vaccination status and by age groups. You didn’t even mention the Washington study in your answer to me. It is worth the time to peruse through.

So ....

Do you believe that, as a group, vaccinated people with Covid fare better than unvaccinated people with Covid? I’m not asking about individual cases, or comorbidities, or how the immune system works. I’m just asking if you agree that the statistics that show RATES of hospitalizations, ICU use, and deaths between vaxxed and unvaxxed point towards a conclusion that the vaccines are effective.

Or do you disagree, and you believe that the vaccines have no effect?

Will you answer those questions?

Seth
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Shell, the topic of my post to you was whether or not the vaccine is effective based upon the statistics.

I was trying to point out that the statistics you quoted SUPPORT the argument that the vaccine works. I was trying to point out that, as a group, vaccinated people tend to fare better with the disease than unvaccinated people do.

And my question to you is whether or not you agree. I’m not asking about other issues, like freedom of choice or how the vaccine works in the body, or whether 5 year olds should be vaccinated.

The sources I gave you don’t give just numbers of patients. They give numbers of patients PLUS numbers for vaccinated and unvaccinated PLUS the patients’ outcomes in the two groups (vaxxed or unvaxxed)

From those numbers we can create a RATE for each group. And from those rates we can draw conclusions.

Additionally, we may look at those rates from different places and see if they are consistent with each other.

We couldn’t do that a year ago. Now we can.

I thought the statistics from Washington State were well done because they broke it all down by
cases, hospitalizations, and deaths by vaccination status and by age groups. You didn’t even mention the Washington study in your answer to me. It is worth the time to peruse through.

So ....

Do you believe that, as a group, vaccinated people with Covid fare better than unvaccinated people with Covid? I’m not asking about individual cases, or comorbidities, or how the immune system works. I’m just asking if you agree that the statistics that show RATES of hospitalizations, ICU use, and deaths between vaxxed and unvaxxed point towards a conclusion that the vaccines are effective.

Or do you disagree, and you believe that the vaccines have no effect?

Will you answer those questions?

Seth
And old people die from natural causes more than young people. Since these are the only 3 parameters, let's look at the stats to confirm. Silly right? And yet you want to do the same thing. You want to use only 3 parameter(vaccinated, unvaccinated and death), to conclude the efficacy of this vaccine. And, ignore all the other variables relating to the vaccine.

The vaccine DOES work. But the problem is HOW it works. What's in it. How it effects the immune system. As well as the other verifiable unknowns(secrecy) and adverse events. And, you just want me to ignore any of this, and adopt the mantra that "vaccinated people fair better off than unvaccinated people". All that matters is that vaccinated people die less that unvaccinated people. And you have no idea just how silly this sounds without context.

What scares me most. Is that I am probably the least educated person here, and this bullshit is as clear as glass to me. Now you want me to ignore/dismiss anything that is related to, or relevant to Covid-19 deaths and vaccines. Really?? You're better than this!

This is YOUR life, I would never criticize your life, or the choices you make. Since I don't live your life, I have no right to judge it. I have explained numerous times why I would never go anywhere near this poison. Simply saying that it reduces symptoms, and therefore deaths, leaves out so many other negatives about this vaccine. Since you want me to ignore all the other variables, then I can't answer you truthfully.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
@Shellandshilo1956

The vaccine DOES work.”

I’m glad we could finally agree on that.

So we’re almost one year into vaccinations. There have been about 9.4 billion doses given, and about 4 billion people fully vaccinated. That’s a lot of test subjects for scientists to study.

I know you are concerned about HOW the vaccine works. But for me it’s just a risk/reward judgement, and the data we have about age factors into that calculation.

In a crash you can be injured by your shoulder/lap belt. But we wear them anyway because the risk is outweighed by the reward.

Seth
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
@Shellandshilo1956

The vaccine DOES work.”

I’m glad we could finally agree on that.

So we’re almost one year into vaccinations. There have been about 9.4 billion doses given, and about 4 billion people fully vaccinated. That’s a lot of test subjects for scientists to study.

I know you are concerned about HOW the vaccine works. But for me it’s just a risk/reward judgement, and the data we have about age factors into that calculation.

In a crash you can be injured by your shoulder/lap belt. But we wear them anyway because the risk is outweighed by the reward.

Seth
Terrible analogy. One is about physics, the other is biological. And, it is because I know how these mRNA vaccines work, that I would never go near them. But I get the point. You are indeed one of the 4B test subjects for this vaccine. I am not!
 

greggerypeccary

Active member
Terrible analogy. One is about physics, the other is biological. And, it is because I know how these mRNA vaccines work, that I would never go near them.
What about it concerns you?

mRNA vaccines work by introducing a piece of mRNA that corresponds to a viral protein, usually a small piece of a protein found on the virus’s outer membrane. (Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.) Using this mRNA blueprint, cells produce the viral protein. As part of a normal immune response, the immune system recognizes that the protein is foreign and produces specialized proteins called antibodies. Antibodies help protect the body against infection by recognizing individual viruses or other pathogens, attaching to them, and marking the pathogens for destruction. Once produced, antibodies remain in the body, even after the body has rid itself of the pathogen, so that the immune system can quickly respond if exposed again. If a person is exposed to a virus after receiving mRNA vaccination for it, antibodies can quickly recognize it, attach to it, and mark it for destruction before it can cause serious illness.
 

Biggles53

Member
Fact Check-No evidence to support claim by ex-Pfizer scientist on COVID-19 vaccine safety in children
“Contrary to a claim made by ex-Pfizer scientist Michael Yeadon, there’s no evidence to say COVID-19 vaccines are “50 times more likely” to kill children than COVID-19 itself.”
“As of November 16, the CDC's COVID-19 tracker recorded 913 COVID-19 deaths and 5,829,850 registered cases among U.S. children aged 0-17”.
“As of Nov. 12, Reuters found 30 death reports on VAERS following COVID-19 vaccination for ages 6-17 (two of “suicide”) and two for children between 1-2 years old”.

 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Within the past two years IN AUSTRALIA, up to Jan. 11th, 2022,

0 - 9yo, 72,854 total cases. 2(0.002%) deaths from serious comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

10 -19yo, 110,337 total cases. 2(0.002%) deaths from comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

20 -29yo 233,895 total cases. 10(0.004%) deaths, ALL from comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

So again, what is the scientific basis for mandating our children to be vaccinated??? Why again do we need to stick this poison into our kids, and risk them having an adverse event?? These real figures alone, just don't justify the risk as necessary or beneficial. It seems that this media-driven manufactured hysteria, is the only science that is driving people to this level of compliancy. Plus, loss of job, freedoms, arrest and fines.

 

Crackey

New member
Fact Check-No evidence to support claim by ex-Pfizer scientist on COVID-19 vaccine safety in children
“Contrary to a claim made by ex-Pfizer scientist Michael Yeadon, there’s no evidence to say COVID-19 vaccines are “50 times more likely” to kill children than COVID-19 itself.”
“As of November 16, the CDC's COVID-19 tracker recorded 913 COVID-19 deaths and 5,829,850 registered cases among U.S. children aged 0-17”.
“As of Nov. 12, Reuters found 30 death reports on VAERS following COVID-19 vaccination for ages 6-17 (two of “suicide”) and two for children between 1-2 years old”.

As I was saying, "Who to believe?" A former Pfizer scientist or Reuters? One was inside looking out and the other is outside looking in.
 

stunspore

Member
Within the past two years IN AUSTRALIA, up to Jan. 11th, 2022,

0 - 9yo, 72,854 total cases. 2(0.002%) deaths from serious comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

10 -19yo, 110,337 total cases. 2(0.002%) deaths from comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

20 -29yo 233,895 total cases. 10(0.004%) deaths, ALL from comorbidities, chronic illnesses, and this virus.

So again, what is the scientific basis for mandating our children to be vaccinated??? Why again do we need to stick this poison into our kids, and risk them having an adverse event?? These real figures alone, just don't justify the risk as necessary or beneficial. It seems that this media-driven manufactured hysteria, is the only science that is driving people to this level of compliancy. Plus, loss of job, freedoms, arrest and fines.

Hmm... anyone refuting that only 12? deaths in past years?

I'm not sure the meaning - though based on previous posts, it's suggesting that virus alone isn't a killer. Which is mostly true as far as i know, though it becomes a factor or the straw that breaks the camel's back. In which case, i would assign the cause to the virus - since without the virus, the person would still be alive (but still suffering from the comorbidity).

And then there's the economic (jobs) and freedom stuff mentioned.
Well, given so many vaccinated, and still there's issues with the economy - that's on both murdoch and non-murdoch media, you can imagine it be a lot worse without large scale vaccinations.

I deleted the last line of your post—could be taken as wishing someone dead. JM
 
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stunspore

Member
Hmm... anyone refuting that only 12? deaths in past years?

I'm not sure the meaning - though based on previous posts, it's suggesting that virus alone isn't a killer. Which is mostly true as far as i know, though it becomes a factor or the straw that breaks the camel's back. In which case, i would assign the cause to the virus - since without the virus, the person would still be alive (but still suffering from the comorbidity).

And then there's the economic (jobs) and freedom stuff mentioned.
Well, given so many vaccinated, and still there's issues with the economy - that's on both murdoch and non-murdoch media, you can imagine it be a lot worse without large scale vaccinations.

I deleted the last line of your post—could be taken as wishing someone dead. JM
Thanks.
 

Crackey

New member
Hmm... anyone refuting that only 12? deaths in past years?

I'm not sure the meaning - though based on previous posts, it's suggesting that virus alone isn't a killer. Which is mostly true as far as i know, though it becomes a factor or the straw that breaks the camel's back. In which case, i would assign the cause to the virus - since without the virus, the person would still be alive (but still suffering from the comorbidity).

And then there's the economic (jobs) and freedom stuff mentioned.
Well, given so many vaccinated, and still there's issues with the economy - that's on both murdoch and non-murdoch media, you can imagine it be a lot worse without large scale vaccinations. ...
Definitely, a lot to think about before making any conviction.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
What about it concerns you?

mRNA vaccines work by introducing a piece of mRNA that corresponds to a viral protein, usually a small piece of a protein found on the virus’s outer membrane. (Individuals who get an mRNA vaccine are not exposed to the virus, nor can they become infected by the vaccine.) Using this mRNA blueprint, cells produce the viral protein. As part of a normal immune response, the immune system recognizes that the protein is foreign and produces specialized proteins called antibodies. Antibodies help protect the body against infection by recognizing individual viruses or other pathogens, attaching to them, and marking the pathogens for destruction. Once produced, antibodies remain in the body, even after the body has rid itself of the pathogen, so that the immune system can quickly respond if exposed again. If a person is exposed to a virus after receiving mRNA vaccination for it, antibodies can quickly recognize it, attach to it, and mark it for destruction before it can cause serious illness.

Basically this is correct. Normally, mRNA is created in the nucleus(transcription), and uses the DNA as its template to make proteins. It carries the genetic message from the nucleus to outside of the nucleus(cytoplasm). Outside the nucleus, it attaches to a ribosome, where proteins can begin being assembled(translation). But with this manmade, lab-created vaccine, recreating a viral genetic sequence is NOT an exact science. This sequence is injected in the cell(using a monkey viral cold vector), where it bypasses the nucleus, where errors could be located, deleted, or corrected. The stop and start sequence codes in the genetic sequencing are NOT always consistent in this vaccine. Whatever is written on the mRNA is directly what is translated into protein. There are NO nonsense coding, or any error-correcting coding safeguards. This would never have been allowed if coding had originated in the nucleus. A normally healthy muscle cell, is now forced to make a viral spike protein on its surface. What other changes will we now be able to genetically force the body to do in the future??

It is these muscle-created viral spikes(ANTIGENS) that our antibodies see, and will mount an immune response against. Thus, the unnecessary loss of healthy muscle cells. And, an unnecessary immune response to a disease that doesn't exist to the body. Especially, in a population where less than 1% of the entire population is even infected.

Our immune system already has antibodies to fight every known(and unknown) pathogen in the universe. Variants don't matter. My concerns include, that

these vaccine-induced antibodies are antigen-specific to only ONE type of pathogen. these vaccine-induced antibodies will out-compete against all other natural antibodies for this antigen.
these vaccine-induced antibodies, if they enter the bloodstream, can become immunogens, and cause adverse events.
these vaccine-induced antibodies, cannot adapt to a change in the antigen like our normal antibodies.
these vaccines in general, are cheap and easy to produce and distribute. And, the profit mark-ups and contractual obligation on countries, are a dream for any company.

Because of these and other reasons, NO FUCKING WAY!! And, now that government is openly discriminating, arresting, fining, coercing, and holding to ransom people's jobs and freedoms, just to force every holdouts to stick this poison into their arm!! I mean, what crazed lunatic leader says, "Why should unvaccinated people enjoy the same freedoms as vaccinated people?". Ignoring the fact that they created this division with their policies in the first place! All because of a flu-like virus, with a mortality rate less than the fucking measles. The red flags are definitely flying high for me.

Look, if you think that by being vaccinated with this drug will protect you from dying, or can reduce your symptoms any more than a trip to the pharmacist, then go for it. The therapeutic value that you receive depends only on the condition of your immune system. NOT THE VACCINE!! And, this benefits only effects no one else but you.

Just don't make it policy, to intimidate, coerce, threaten, or openly discriminate against people who use science and the facts to shape their decisions. No one chooses to be infected. But everyone should have the choice to be vaccinated or not. WITHOUT PREJUDICE!!!
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
As I was saying, "Who to believe?" A former Pfizer scientist or Reuters? One was inside looking out and the other is outside looking in.
I really think that this is a NO-BRAINER! I really like the phrase, "There is no evidence to suggest/prove....". Of course this doesn't mean that there IS NO evidence that this is true! "The absence of evidence is not the proof of absence.".
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Hmm... anyone refuting that only 12? deaths in past years?

I'm not sure the meaning - though based on previous posts, it's suggesting that virus alone isn't a killer.
I have no idea what the "12" is, that you are referring to. But of the 417,086 under 30's cases over the past 2 years, only 14 total people have died WITH the SARS-CoV-2 virus. NOT because of this virus. And, even if they were all healthy super athletic under 30's, a mortality rate of 0.00003% in this group, does not justify mandated vaccinations by any conceivable rationale. People are not even questioning, even the most absurd assertions. Any person in this group, WOULD have a greater chance of dying from the vaccine, than from the virus.

Which is mostly true as far as i know, though it becomes a factor or the straw that breaks the camel's back. In which case, i would assign the cause to the virus - since without the virus, the person would still be alive (but still suffering from the comorbidity).
And without the comorbidities the person might still be alive as well. Remember, over 85% of people over 80yo in Australia also have survived this virus. Vaccinated or not!!

And then there's the economic (jobs) and freedom stuff mentioned.
Well, given so many vaccinated, and still there's issues with the economy - that's on both murdoch and non-murdoch media, you can imagine it be a lot worse without large scale vaccinations.
I have no idea what this even means! Clearly you don't give a shit about Australians losing their jobs or their freedoms. What do you think is going to happen even if everyone is vaccinated? Do you think that all future vaccinations will just stop? Do you think Covid-19 cases will just end? How about people dying from this virus? Do you think that any of these things is just going to stop? It didn't stop in the year before vaccinations, or so far, in the year during vaccinations.

Just keep your "think for yourself" blinders on. And, continue to see what you are told to see, and think what you are told to think. You are a good and faithful sheeple!
 
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