Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

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Shellandshilo1956

Active member
NOT bullshit, dickwad! All the figures released show the same thing.
Yes, Absolute BULLSHIT! It's easy to spot bullshit, toady. Because every time your bullshit is challenged, you just make up more bullshit. For example, "All of the figures released show WHAT things? That hospitals are being stretched to their limits--Bullshit! That the number of vaccinations, will determine your chances of living or dying--Bullshit! That these lab-created genetic codes, on a monkey cold viral vector, is much better than our natural immune response--Bullshit! That it is prudent to infect our kids and babies, with a disease that their system is more than capable of fighting--Bullshit! That the 12,229 new cases in NSW(0.1% of pop), would mean that at least 6,236 are unvaccinated, and 5,992 are doubly vaccinated--Bullshit! And, that being doubly vaccinated will prevent you from becoming infected, transmitting, or dying from this virus--Bullshit!

So again, what figures?? How many do you think will recover? Vaxxed or unvaxxed?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
What reasons are those?
This is the last time, so I'll keep it simple.

I was vaccinated for childhood diseases. And so were my children. It is a prudent precaution, and can avoid years of misery for our children. It is safe, and has years of science supporting its efficacy. These vaccines also use REAL ATTENUATED/MODIFIED VIRUSES within the vaccine itself. This allows our immune system to respond to a real pathogen or a real antigen. This means that our antibodies can identify even the variants of the pathogen.

But these mRNA vaccines are different, rushed, and not fully tested. We don't fully know what is in them. The company are indemnity-proof. The FOI act doesn't apply until 2096. No country or person can sue them ever. It requires that all governments follow the conditions of their contracts to the letter, or suffer grave consequences on a national scale. These vaccines cause normal healthy muscle cells to start genetically producing viral spike proteins(translation). These spikes induce the production of antigen-specific, low-spectrum, high affinity antibodies only! Look at it this way.

You are a car the size of a virus. There are many parts to the car. Some parts are very essential, and some parts not as much. You attach yourself to a cell by the steering wheel. You then send your engine into the cell, or drive the whole can into the cell. Once inside, you use your engine to steal the engine of the cell, and begin making the parts to create more cars. Once there are too many cars, the cell will explode. Thus alerting our immune system.

This mRNA vaccines replicates only the steering wheel on the car. The vaccine induced antibodies can only see the steering wheel of this specific car. They can't see the headlights, hood, or the taillights, If the steering wheel has a fuzzy dice or religious beads on it(variants), the vaccine becomes useless. And, our natural immune system will take over. These normal antibodies will see the entire car. Changing models or the steering wheel won't affect them.
 

greggerypeccary

Active member
This is the last time, so I'll keep it simple.

I was vaccinated for childhood diseases. And so were my children. It is a prudent precaution, and can avoid years of misery for our children. It is safe, and has years of science supporting its efficacy. These vaccines also use REAL ATTENUATED/MODIFIED VIRUSES within the vaccine itself. This allows our immune system to respond to a real pathogen or a real antigen. This means that our antibodies can identify even the variants of the pathogen.

But these mRNA vaccines are different, rushed, and not fully tested. We don't fully know what is in them. The company are indemnity-proof. The FOI act doesn't apply until 2096. No country or person can sue them ever. It requires that all governments follow the conditions of their contracts to the letter, or suffer grave consequences on a national scale. These vaccines cause normal healthy muscle cells to start genetically producing viral spike proteins(translation). These spikes induce the production of antigen-specific, low-spectrum, high affinity antibodies only! Look at it this way.

You are a car the size of a virus. There are many parts to the car. Some parts are very essential, and some parts not as much. You attach yourself to a cell by the steering wheel. You then send your engine into the cell, or drive the whole can into the cell. Once inside, you use your engine to steal the engine of the cell, and begin making the parts to create more cars. Once there are too many cars, the cell will explode. Thus alerting our immune system.

This mRNA vaccines replicates only the steering wheel on the car. The vaccine induced antibodies can only see the steering wheel of this specific car. They can't see the headlights, hood, or the taillights, If the steering wheel has a fuzzy dice or religious beads on it(variants), the vaccine becomes useless. And, our natural immune system will take over. These normal antibodies will see the entire car. Changing models or the steering wheel won't affect them.
Do you wear a seat belt when you get in a car?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/ -> is there a similar website for sorry, died from vaccine with as many entrants?
Are you really saying that all these people died because they were unvaccinated? Are you really this stupid and gullible. Viruses don't kill you dumb-dumb-2. Your immune response, and the subsequent infections is what kills you. How many of these people had other underlying, or chronic health issues as well? I guess we can't let context and honesty, get in the way of spreading this contrived bullshit narrative, right. "Get vaccinated and live, don't and you die.".

Here's something novel and honest, when you learn to think for yourself. Try listing all of the unvaccinated people who have recovered. Remember those thousands of people before vaccines?

Wonder what doctorate/degree our resident anti-vaxer has?
Even if I received just a "Thank you for showing up" letter from "goody goodtime U", it would still be a better education, than anyone who can't think for themselves. Try reading a book instead of sleeping under one.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
@Shellandshilo1956 Every study I can find shows that being vaccinated lowers the risk of Covid-related serious illness, hospitalization, and death. And the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated is dramatic.




Do you deny this?
 

stunspore

Member
Given the millions of people vaccinated, what's the expected "damage"/"negative effects" that would be observed vs. those not vaccinated? It's been about 2 years at least of vaccines so there should be some data? (or perhaps it doesn't suit antivaxers that vaccinated people are walking around alive and healthy?) It should be statistically significant, if vaccines are harmful. And then compare against the statistics of those who died from covid with and without vaccine.
 

HBS Guy

Head Honcho 💉💉
Staff member
Yes, Absolute BULLSHIT! It's easy to spot bullshit, toady. Because every time your bullshit is challenged, you just make up more bullshit. For example, "All of the figures released show WHAT things? That hospitals are being stretched to their limits--Bullshit! That the number of vaccinations, will determine your chances of living or dying--Bullshit! That these lab-created genetic codes, on a monkey cold viral vector, is much better than our natural immune response--Bullshit! That it is prudent to infect our kids and babies, with a disease that their system is more than capable of fighting--Bullshit! That the 12,229 new cases in NSW(0.1% of pop), would mean that at least 6,236 are unvaccinated, and 5,992 are doubly vaccinated--Bullshit! And, that being doubly vaccinated will prevent you from becoming infected, transmitting, or dying from this virus--Bullshit!

So again, what figures?? How many do you think will recover? Vaxxed or unvaxxed?
The figures show that the unvaxxed and the single jabbed, despite being a tiny minority make up the bulk of hospital admissions and deaths.

If you could be objective you would already know this. But you are lost in conspiracy theory land.
 

Crackey

New member
From another Discussion Forum:
" ... virtually all of the people who aren’t vaccinated are never going to get vaccinated while all the people who are vaccinated are going to continue getting vaccinated forever. "
An interesting notion.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
@Shellandshilo1956 Every study I can find shows that being vaccinated lowers the risk of Covid-related serious illness, hospitalization, and death. And the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated is dramatic.




Do you deny this?
Seth, I'm not going to go into the sample size fallacy, because of your cognitive bias. For example, if I took a sample of 100 people. 95 people were doubly vaccinated, and 5 people were unvaccinated. 5 people died with Covid-19 from both groups. Does this mean that if you are unvaccinated, that you will have a 100% chance of dying? Or, if vaccinated only a 5.3% chance of dying? Or, is 19 times more likely of surviving, if you are vaccinated? It is NOT about the stats, it is about the interpretation of the stats.

So your 2nd source I disagree with, and have explained why(sample size fallacy).

Regarding your 1st source about NSW health facts, here is something that stood out to me.

"There were 8,660 cases who were hospitalised, 1,015 admitted to ICU and 412 who died with COVID-19. Of these, 493 of the hospitalised, 30 of those admitted to ICU and 47 of those who died had received two doses of vaccine. Of the 47 cases who died with COVID-19 who had two doses of vaccine, their average age was 82 years; 29 (61.7%) were residents of aged care facilities and the other 18 had significant comorbidities. Of the 30 admitted to ICU, 26 (86.7%) had significant co-morbidities and 4 had no reported comorbid conditions. ".

This at least explained WHO were in the hospitals, and why they died. Not simply saying that unvaccinated people are overwhelming our hospitals. As you can see, there are other variables to consider.

Look, a debate is NOT one-directional. You can tell me that more unvaccinated people have died in hospital than vaccinated people. But when I show you where a headless unvaccinated women with Covid-19, is counted as dying from covid-19, then you must address that point. What do people actually die of? What were the people in the hospital for, in the first place? Any scientist knows, that viruses don't kill their hosts.

But you just ignore every point I make, and go into repeat soundbites and cliché mode. One person even says that I care more about my wellbeing, than my being vaccinated. This is how silly this madness has gotten. I raise these questions for answers. But all I get is excuses and insults. If you don't know the answers, then just don't comment.

My point has always been, you can do whatever you believe will make you feel safe and secure. What you want to do to your body is none of my business. But what you want to do to MY body IS my business. When I see all these extreme measures to force man woman and child to be jabbed with this poison, red flags pop up. Why hold our jobs and freedoms to ransom, to force our compliance? Why infect our own children with this poison? Why create a vaccine culture of vaccinated Australians against unvaccinated Australians? Why is the Government so desperate to reach 100% vaccinated? Does anyone here think that at 100% vaccinated, that no one will be infected, spread, or die from this virus? It only means, that only vaccinated people will by catching and dying from this virus. Just madness!
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
We get jabbed with the flu shot every year. Viruses mutate.
I don't!! But, we don't shut down borders, destroy businesses and industries, end jobs and dreams, an fine and imprison people, if we don't get jabbed. Or, because viruses mutate! Do we??
 
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Crackey

New member
We get jabbed with the flu shot every year. Viruses mutate.
I understand what you are saying and I see your logic as well. However, I haven't had a flu shot since ... I don't remember ... maybe when I was in the Army 1965-67. So, no "we" don't get a flu shot every year. I can't think of anyone here who does.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
From another Discussion Forum:
" ... virtually all of the people who aren’t vaccinated are never going to get vaccinated while all the people who are vaccinated are going to continue getting vaccinated forever. "
An interesting notion.
I mean, just imagine. Governments can now force the entire world population to stick something into their arms. What could possibly go wrong? Not everyone at Jonestown wanted to drink the Kool Aid.
 
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SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Seth, I'm not going to go into the sample size fallacy, because of your cognitive bias. For example, if I took a sample of 100 people. 95 people were doubly vaccinated, and 5 people were unvaccinated. 5 people died with Covid-19 from both groups. Does this mean that if you are unvaccinated, that you will have a 100% chance of dying? Or, if vaccinated only a 5.3% chance of dying? Or, is 19 times more likely of surviving, if you are vaccinated? It is NOT about the stats, it is about the interpretation of the stats.

So your 2nd source I disagree with, and have explained why(sample size fallacy).

Regarding your 1st source about NSW health facts, here is something that stood out to me.

"There were 8,660 cases who were hospitalised, 1,015 admitted to ICU and 412 who died with COVID-19. Of these, 493 of the hospitalised, 30 of those admitted to ICU and 47 of those who died had received two doses of vaccine. Of the 47 cases who died with COVID-19 who had two doses of vaccine, their average age was 82 years; 29 (61.7%) were residents of aged care facilities and the other 18 had significant comorbidities. Of the 30 admitted to ICU, 26 (86.7%) had significant co-morbidities and 4 had no reported comorbid conditions. ".

This at least explained WHO were in the hospitals, and why they died. Not simply saying that unvaccinated people are overwhelming our hospitals. As you can see, there are other variables to consider.

Look, a debate is NOT one-directional. You can tell me that more unvaccinated people have died in hospital than vaccinated people. But when I show you where a headless unvaccinated women with Covid-19, is counted as dying from covid-19, then you must address that point. What do people actually die of? What were the people in the hospital for, in the first place? Any scientist knows, that viruses don't kill their hosts.

But you just ignore every point I make, and go into repeat soundbites and cliché mode. One person even says that I care more about my wellbeing, than my being vaccinated. This is how silly this madness has gotten. I raise these questions for answers. But all I get is excuses and insults. If you don't know the answers, then just don't comment.

My point has always been, you can do whatever you believe will make you feel safe and secure. What you want to do to your body is none of my business. But what you want to do to MY body IS my business. When I see all these extreme measures to force man woman and child to be jabbed with this poison, red flags pop up. Why hold our jobs and freedoms to ransom, to force our compliance? Why infect our own children with this poison? Why create a vaccine culture of vaccinated Australians against unvaccinated Australians? Why is the Government so desperate to reach 100% vaccinated? Does anyone here think that at 100% vaccinated, that no one will be infected, spread, or die from this virus? It only means, that only vaccinated people will by catching and dying from this virus. Just madness!
Well, Shell, you've earned yourself a lengthy reply to chew on.

Let's talk about that 2nd source for a moment. In the first part of the article, the author is simply explaining why death numbers don't matter when comparing vaccinated people with unvaccinated people. The author made up some numbers to illustrate the point. The point was that death rates are what matter when comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated, not death numbers.

Like you, I keep up on the news and contemporary opinion. And I have heard the rather breathless claim, "Just as many vaccinated people died from Covid as unvaccinated people!" in a given day, week or month. But that is a deceitful claim. It may be true when you only count the numbers, but it's not telling the true story.

In Australia, 77.5% of your population is fully vaccinated. So let's say 100 Australians all get the disease. 77 of them are fully vaccinated. 23 of them are not vaccinated. Two of the 100 die, one vaccinated, and one not vaccinated. It is deceitful to then headline the fact that "just as many vaccinated people died as did unvaccinated people." Because the death rate is very different between the two groups, and that is what really matters.

Further on down in the article are charts showing death rates in the U.S., U.K., Switzerland, and Chile in vaccinated people and unvaccinated people. All of those show significantly lower death rates in vaccinated people who get Covid than in unvaccinated people.

The third source I gave you from the State of Washington is very interesting because it shows breakdowns of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths by vaccination status with the vaccination percentage of each group.

For example,

On page 11 we can see that 73% of Washingtonians are fully vaccinated. Of all the people who died of Covid, 19% were fully vaccinated.

Unvaccinated Washingtonians are 21% of the population. Of all the people who died of Covid, 75% were not vaccinated.

(The numbers don't add up to 100% because, for simplicity, I left out the "Partially vaccinated" numbers, but they show that "Partially vaccinated" was close to "Unvaccinated".)

This study does a good job of breaking things down by age group.

For the 65+ group, 12% of them are not vaccinated, and yet those 12% represent 68% of Covid-related deaths in that age group.

82% of that group are fully vaccinated, and yet that 82% represent only 27% of the deaths in that age group.

If these vaccines didn't work, then we would see no difference between vaccinated/unvaccinated people when we look at these percentages and rates.

As an example, in Washington state, in the 65+ age group, if 12% are unvaccinated, they should only represent 12% of the deaths, if the vaccines don't work. And the 82% who are fully vaccinated should represent 82% of the deaths if the vaccines don't work.

But that's not the case.


Now I'm going to quote you and point something out ... quoting you:

Regarding your 1st source about NSW health facts, here is something that stood out to me.

"There were 8,660 cases who were hospitalised, 1,015 admitted to ICU and 412 who died with COVID-19. Of these, 493 of the hospitalised, 30 of those admitted to ICU and 47 of those who died had received two doses of vaccine. Of the 47 cases who died with COVID-19 who had two doses of vaccine, their average age was 82 years; 29 (61.7%) were residents of aged care facilities and the other 18 had significant comorbidities. Of the 30 admitted to ICU, 26 (86.7%) had significant co-morbidities and 4 had no reported comorbid conditions. ".

This at least explained WHO were in the hospitals, and why they died. Not simply saying that unvaccinated people are overwhelming our hospitals. As you can see, there are other variables to consider. (End quote)


412 people died. Of those who died, only 47 were fully vaccinated. That's 11.4%. That must mean that the other 88.6% were not fully vaccinated. The ones who were not fully vaccinated died at a rate almost 8 times that of vaccinated people.

And the 18 fully vaccinated with an average age of 82 who had significant comorbidities who died? They are only 4.3% of those who died. This means that the other 29 fully vaccinated people who died had a younger average age, and they represent only 7% of those who died.

8660 hospitalized. Fully vaccinated: 5.7%
1015 admitted in ICU. Fully vaccinated: 3%
412 died. Fully vaccinated: 11.4% Fully vaccinated, ave. age under 82: 4.3%

Say what you want about statistics, but they are what they are. And from those statistics we may logically conclude that the vaccines are reducing the severity of this illness and saving lives.

There is just no other conclusion we can draw. For me, this is not "cognitive bias", Shell. If the statistics pointed us to a different conclusion, I would see it and reach a different conclusion.

I'm generally with you as far as the restrictions, mandates, and firing people from their jobs. My personal opinion is that we should be respectful of our elderly, understanding that they are more vulnerable to this disease. So where do they need to go the most? They need to go food shopping and to doctors offices. So I don't mind putting on a mask and keeping my distance from people in grocery stores and medical facilities, out of respect for them, even if the efficacy of those things is questionable. I don't care. It is not a great burden if it helps keep them safe, even if only a little bit.

But aside from that, I favor relaxing the restrictions. I favor letting people decide if they want to get vaccinated, wear a mask, go to crowded places, travel, etc, and I definitely think children need to get back in school.

Seth
 
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stunspore

Member
A question to shelly, old folks shouldn't take the vaccine as well? They are better off having covid rather than the vaccine? Or those with "comorbidities"?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Well, Shell, you've earned yourself a lengthy reply to chew on.
I have a pretty long attention span.

Let's talk about that 2nd source for a moment. In the first part of the article, the author is simply explaining why death numbers don't matter when comparing vaccinated people with unvaccinated people. The author made up some numbers to illustrate the point. The point was that death rates are what matter when comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated, not death numbers.
The "death rate" is based entirely on the "death numbers" and the total infection numbers Seth. Both matter, vaccinated or not. So, I disagree.

Like you, I keep up on the news and contemporary opinion. And I have heard the rather breathless claim, "Just as many vaccinated people died from Covid as unvaccinated people!" in a given day, week or month. But that is a deceitful claim. It may be true when you only count the numbers, but it's not telling the true story.
Agree. I have been trying to focus people on the mortality rate, recovery rates, and both rates in context with the entire population. A deceitful claim would be to look at a result, take ONE factor as the only causality, and dismiss/ignore any other relevant causalities. Like you are doing now. Maybe you can show me why a vaccinated immune system is overall better than an unvaccinated immune sytem? Without using stats! These stats/data show only a partial truth. You are just trying to pass these results off as the whole truth. This is just untrue.

In Australia, 77.5% of your population is fully vaccinated. So let's say 100 Australians all get the disease. 77 of them are fully vaccinated. 23 of them are not vaccinated. Two of the 100 die, one vaccinated, and one not vaccinated. It is deceitful to then headline the fact that "just as many vaccinated people died as did unvaccinated people." Because the death rate is very different between the two groups, and that is what really matters.
I don't know why you are trying to complicate simplicity with numbers. The mortality rate doesn't give a brass razoo about whether or not you are vaccinated. Or, about the pecentage of vaxxed and unvaxxed that are in the society. It is based only on the percentage of people who have died with Covid-19, and the number of people who have acquired Covid-19. Whether a person is vaccinated or not, they still must use their immune system. Therefore, we need to look at other factors that have contributed to these deaths. Which I have already listed. And, this IS about the numbers of deaths Seth. Not about these manufactured hypotheticals, and crystal-balling "what if's" sophistry.

Say what you want about statistics, but they are what they are. And from those statistics we may logically conclude that the vaccines are reducing the severity of this illness and saving lives.

There is just no other conclusion we can draw. For me, this is not "cognitive bias", Shell. If the statistics pointed us to a different conclusion, I would see it and reach a different conclusion.
The problem that we both know about stats/data, is that they can be manipulated to mean anything you want. I wonder what the stats in the hospitals of other states would show? Politicians use data to spin any story they want. How many of these infected unvaxxed people were admitted to hospital because of their Covid-19? Or, for other reasons that were incidental to the disease? How many people were held in hospital only as a result of being tested positive for Covid-19? All that is relevant here, are the numbers of Covid-19 victims in the ICU's, who are on respirators, or what were the real comorbidities that contributed to their death? The rest can create whatever optics you want.

I can tell you the story of the father from perth, who wasn't allowed(or the grandmother) to take his child out of a hospital in Queensland North, after the mother had died. Just because he(and the grandmother) weren't vaccinated. How cruel is that?? Be jabbed or lose your child. The child was sent to family services awaiting foster care. It took almost a month before the child could be reunited with the father and grandmother. The father opted to be jabbed. Just madness!

I have read your entire post. Clearly, you have selected and interpreted these stats/data, to accomodate your cognitive bias. Others(like me) can interpret these stats differently. You are just using "abductive" reasoning to justify your own probable conclusion. Based only on the facts that you have selected. For example, if the soup is still hot on a table, you might conclude that the owner will return soon. But there may be other possible conclusions, right?

Like another member of the forum stated, you have already been vaccinated, so there is no way that you will stop taking more vaccines if you are told to. Even if 100% of people were vaccinated, and were still being infected, you would just keep rationalizing that we must still need more. This is not science, this is social conditioning! So, I'm sure that you could find the stats to prove that those with short toenails, are more at risk of dying from Covid-19 than those with long toenails. And, if you were a pedicurist, I'm sure that this fact would have some relevance to you. But not to me.

So again, the only things that matters with any pathogen infecting the population, is how many people recover, and how many people die. The rest is just manufactured hype, snowballing towards insanity. Is this really the Australia that you want your kids to live in?? Fuck no!!

I'm generally with you as far as the restrictions, mandates, and firing people from their jobs. My personal opinion is that we should be respectful of our elderly, understanding that they are more vulnerable to this disease. So where do they need to go the most? They need to go food shopping and to doctors offices. So I don't mind putting on a mask and keeping my distance from people in grocery stores and medical facilities, out of respect for them, even if the efficacy of those things is questionable. I don't care. It is not a great burden if it helps keep them safe, even if only a little bit.

But aside from that, I favor relaxing the restrictions. I favor letting people decide if they want to get vaccinated, wear a mask, go to crowded places, travel, etc, and I definitely think children need to get back in school.
Totally agree with this. What is your view about the mandate to vaccinate 5year olds?

Now I'm going to quote you and point something out ... quoting you:
Not sure what you wanted to point out. Other than denial and that you disagree with me, what specifically did you want to point out?
 
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