Why should people be forced to get vaccinated in order to protect others who choose not to get vaccinated??

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
not all of them choose to remain unvaccinated. Some have no choice because of prior health issues. Especially those with heart issues
A quick google search for that question revealed that people with heart issues should get the vaccine.

"Not only are the vaccines safe for people with a history of heart disease, they are essential. People with heart disease are at increased risk of severe complications from COVID-19."

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/covid-19-vaccine-and-heart-patients-is-it-safe
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
But whether you wear a mask or not, or if others wear a mask or not, you are probably going to get infected with Covid sooner or later. In the U.S., some 44 million people have gotten it (that we know of) in the short time that Covid has been with us. Based upon that timeline and those numbers, we can expect that pretty much everyone is going to get it eventually.
Sorry Seth, this is just more misinformation. We have had this disease for over 22 months, so NOT a short time. And, using that timeline it would take over 13 years for the entire population to be infected.

Let's just look at the facts, as of 7/10/21.


44,918,565 Total Covid-19 Cases since 19 Jan 2020 in the US
34,392,326 Total cases of those recovered from Covid-19 in the US.
727,710 Total number of people who have died from Covid-19 in the US

If we just ignore the fact that the more and more people WHO ARE infected with Covid-19, would mean the more and more people who will recover from Covid-19. Therefore, the less and less people that CAN become infected. Therefore, assuming that everyone will become infected is not logical or rational. It is just a faulty assumption, that assumes herd immunity doesn't exists. But lets run with this assumption. How long will it take for everyone to become infected, based only on the KNOWN variables?

333,437,210 population of the US(as of Oct. 4th) x 22 months / 44,918,565 total infected = 163 months. Or, just over 13 years. So, if everything(including nature) remains constant, in 13 years every man woman, and child will have been infected with Covid-19. Sorry this is not how nature, or natural selection works.

My advice, based upon my personal experience, is to get vaccinated.
WHY?? You are a perfect example that proves that being vaccinated does NOT prevent you from being infected. Had you NOT been vaccinated, you may have still experienced the same SAME outcome. You have no idea if your mild symptoms were because you were vaccinated, or in spite of it, do you? Many unvaccinated people have also claim very mild, or very little symptoms at all. This is just another assumption you're making.

I was reading encouraging news today that Pfizer is developing and getting positive results from a medicine that can be taken after a person is infected with Covid. Other pharmaceutical companies are also working on this as well. This is not a vaccination; it's a medicine that helps prevent serious symptoms from Covid by interfering with the virus's ability to replicate itself. I think it's likely that as time passes, we are going to see medicines developed that will effectively combat Covid and lower the hospitalization rate and death rate. I think these new medicines are just around the corner.
Seth, we do not have any drugs to fight any viruses directly. The problem is that viruses are different to bacteria. Antibiotics can only destroy prokaryotes(bacteria), and NOT human Eukaryotes. Viruses are neither Eukaryotes or Prokaryotes. Bacteria attack the cell from the outside, and does not use the cell's DNA to replicate itself. Viruses attack the cells from the inside, and will reprogram the cell to start making new viruses. How does any treatment target an unusual cellular activity? How can any treatment target something that is inside of the cell? Anything that you add that is foreign to the body, will be attacked by the body! Unless you suppress the immune response. But this will defeat the entire purpose.


All treatments will address the symptoms, not the disease. They will address the inflammation, the bacterial infections, or the immune response itself. Remember, it is NOT the virus that will kill you. It is your immune response. Antibiotic drugs(amoxicillin, erythromycin and ciprofloxacin) will address the bacteria infections. Anti-inflammation drugs(Aspirin, Ibuprofen, Celecoxib, etc.) will address the inflammation. And, immuno-suppressant drugs(Steroids, Corticosteroids, Prednisolone, Cyclosporine, Tacrolimus, etc.) will address the immune response. But absolutely no treatment or drugs, will prevent anyone from being attacked, or from catching the common cold virus, let alone the SARS-CoV-2 virus!!!

Those who choose not to get vaccinated are, in my opinion, taking a risk that I don't agree with, but which I believe is their risk to take if they choose.
These people are taking an INFORMED RISK! Not just completely trusting whatever the pharmaceutical companies tell the government to tell us. If you did your research, you would never take another of these types of vaccines in your life. And, if you did, it would only the better of the two evils. And, if we go down the road of trying to tailor our natural immune system, we will eventually have no natural antibodies to respond to any pathogens. And, our species will end.

Mostly, masking helps protect unvaccinated people who are choosing to be unvaccinated and choosing to deal with Covid when they get it without the help of a vaccination. And those folks are almost inevitably going to get Covid sooner or later anyways, no matter what we do.
How do masks protect unvaccinated more than vaccinated people?? Do masks know the difference? NOTHING CAN PROTECT YOU FROM BEING INFECTED BY ANY VIRUS!! And, certainly not a silly piece of cloth/paper covering your face. Also, if catching Covid-19 is inevitable, then what is the point of wearing masks, period??

Unless some new variant arises that is particularly deadly and which is not mitigated by being vaccinated, the vast majority of vaccinated people have little to fear from Covid.
If you have developed natural antibodies to the natural real SARS-CoV-2 virus, then these natural antibodies won't give a shit about any variant of this pathogen. These are our broad-spectrum antibodies, that will attack ALL viruses. Including any of their variants. I think that it is the naturally acquired unvaccinated recovered victims, who have EVEN LESS to fear from Covid-19.

This being the case, I am ready to go back to normal. That means we open up schools, businesses, and assemble together just as we did before Covid.
If you really want these things to happen, then do something about it. Write, email, text, leave messages, phone, or speak directly to your representative. And, repeat after me,

"ENJOY WHAT POWER YOU THINK YOU HAVE NOW. BECAUSE YOU ARE GONE AT THE NEXT ELECTION! ANY MORON WHO WILL PURPOSELY DESTROY THE LIVES OF PEOPLE, OR IS DUMB ENOUGH TO THINK THAT MAN CAN PHYSICALLY PROTECT HIMSELF FROM A VIRUS, IS JUST A FUCKING IDIOT. I WANT SOMEONE TO REPRESENT ME, WHO CAN ACTUALLY THINK FOR HIMSELF, AND NOT JUST ABOUT HIMSELF!!".
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Here a few things that I've also found. Even America is trying to save Australia.



https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/...kdowns/video/33f326f31fa78a5fde3f57410e70dd1a
 

Biggles53

New member
Are any of the Vic family unable to be vaccinated due to medical conditions? I was thinking about the insane vaccine mandates over there. Surely these people can get an exemption.
My granddaughter is an 8 year old cancer patient. She’s been receiving chemotherapy for the best part of 9 months. Her immune system is shot, so the vaccine is of no use for now. The family has virtually sealed itself off from the world in the interim, save for visits to the hospital…
 

Biggles53

New member
Are any of the Vic family unable to be vaccinated due to medical conditions? I was thinking about the insane vaccine mandates over there. Surely these people can get an exemption.
And the only things “insane” in Victoria are the mouth-breathing morons who take to the streets shouting the conspiracy theory slogans they’ve copied from similar cretins in the US….
 

johnsmith

Moderator
Staff member
My granddaughter is an 8 year old cancer patient. She’s been receiving chemotherapy for the best part of 9 months. Her immune system is shot, so the vaccine is of no use for now. The family has virtually sealed itself off from the world in the interim, save for visits to the hospital…
I'm so sorry to hear that.

It shouldn't happen to kids.
 

SethBullock

Moderator
Staff member
Sorry Seth, this is just more misinformation. We have had this disease for over 22 months, so NOT a short time. And, using that timeline it would take over 13 years for the entire population to be infected.

Let's just look at the facts, as of 7/10/21.


44,918,565 Total Covid-19 Cases since 19 Jan 2020 in the US
34,392,326 Total cases of those recovered from Covid-19 in the US.
727,710 Total number of people who have died from Covid-19 in the US

If we just ignore the fact that the more and more people WHO ARE infected with Covid-19, would mean the more and more people who will recover from Covid-19. Therefore, the less and less people that CAN become infected. Therefore, assuming that everyone will become infected is not logical or rational. It is just a faulty assumption, that assumes herd immunity doesn't exists. But lets run with this assumption. How long will it take for everyone to become infected, based only on the KNOWN variables?

333,437,210 population of the US(as of Oct. 4th) x 22 months / 44,918,565 total infected = 163 months. Or, just over 13 years. So, if everything(including nature) remains constant, in 13 years every man woman, and child will have been infected with Covid-19. Sorry this is not how nature, or natural selection works.



WHY?? You are a perfect example that proves that being vaccinated does NOT prevent you from being infected. Had you NOT been vaccinated, you may have still experienced the same SAME outcome. You have no idea if your mild symptoms were because you were vaccinated, or in spite of it, do you? Many unvaccinated people have also claim very mild, or very little symptoms at all. This is just another assumption you're making.



Seth, we do not have any drugs to fight any viruses directly. The problem is that viruses are different to bacteria. Antibiotics can only destroy prokaryotes(bacteria), and NOT human Eukaryotes. Viruses are neither Eukaryotes or Prokaryotes. Bacteria attack the cell from the outside, and does not use the cell's DNA to replicate itself. Viruses attack the cells from the inside, and will reprogram the cell to start making new viruses. How does any treatment target an unusual cellular activity? How can any treatment target something that is inside of the cell? Anything that you add that is foreign to the body, will be attacked by the body! Unless you suppress the immune response. But this will defeat the entire purpose.


All treatments will address the symptoms, not the disease. They will address the inflammation, the bacterial infections, or the immune response itself. Remember, it is NOT the virus that will kill you. It is your immune response. Antibiotic drugs(amoxicillin, erythromycin and ciprofloxacin) will address the bacteria infections. Anti-inflammation drugs(Aspirin, Ibuprofen, Celecoxib, etc.) will address the inflammation. And, immuno-suppressant drugs(Steroids, Corticosteroids, Prednisolone, Cyclosporine, Tacrolimus, etc.) will address the immune response. But absolutely no treatment or drugs, will prevent anyone from being attacked, or from catching the common cold virus, let alone the SARS-CoV-2 virus!!!



These people are taking an INFORMED RISK! Not just completely trusting whatever the pharmaceutical companies tell the government to tell us. If you did your research, you would never take another of these types of vaccines in your life. And, if you did, it would only the better of the two evils. And, if we go down the road of trying to tailor our natural immune system, we will eventually have no natural antibodies to respond to any pathogens. And, our species will end.



How do masks protect unvaccinated more than vaccinated people?? Do masks know the difference? NOTHING CAN PROTECT YOU FROM BEING INFECTED BY ANY VIRUS!! And, certainly not a silly piece of cloth/paper covering your face. Also, if catching Covid-19 is inevitable, then what is the point of wearing masks, period??



If you have developed natural antibodies to the natural real SARS-CoV-2 virus, then these natural antibodies won't give a shit about any variant of this pathogen. These are our broad-spectrum antibodies, that will attack ALL viruses. Including any of their variants. I think that it is the naturally acquired unvaccinated recovered victims, who have EVEN LESS to fear from Covid-19.



If you really want these things to happen, then do something about it. Write, email, text, leave messages, phone, or speak directly to your representative. And, repeat after me,

"ENJOY WHAT POWER YOU THINK YOU HAVE NOW. BECAUSE YOU ARE GONE AT THE NEXT ELECTION! ANY MORON WHO WILL PURPOSELY DESTROY THE LIVES OF PEOPLE, OR IS DUMB ENOUGH TO THINK THAT MAN CAN PHYSICALLY PROTECT HIMSELF FROM A VIRUS, IS JUST A FUCKING IDIOT. I WANT SOMEONE TO REPRESENT ME, WHO CAN ACTUALLY THINK FOR HIMSELF, AND NOT JUST ABOUT HIMSELF!!".
On my phone, so I’m going to respond to you addressing your replies starting from the first to the last.

1) Sometime within the next 13 years IS “sooner or later.” But you’re right that not every last living person on earth is going to get infected.

But ...

A lot of us will get infected, probably most of us. Now here was what I was getting at ... Enough of us are going to get infected that every person should make a decision about how they plan on dealing with that. HOPING they never get infected isn’t much of a plan, so people may choose to rely on their natural resistance to illness or they can get vaccinated. The gist of my statement was that we should all assume that we’re going to get infected at some point (even though there is a chance that you won’t) and decide how you plan to deal with it.

2) I am 66 years old. I am in good health for a man of my age, not perfect health. My body reminds me that I am aging every day. I’ve had pneumonia twice in my life, plus other issues over the years. Surely, if it weren’t for advances in medicine over the past hundred years, I’d be dead long ago.

OF COURSE I have no proof of how I would have faired against Covid without the vaccination!

But my bout with it was typical of the majority of vaccinated people - mild symptoms, short duration, no lingering effects. Additionally, I didn’t pass it to my wife. I have no science to backup my thoughts, but I suspect that my body responded so fast and effectively to the infection that the period of time that I was infectious was short.

I am reasonably certain that having been vaccinated helped me. Frankly, I’ve had bouts with the flu that were much worse. Comparing the two, Covid was a walk in the park.

3) On masks - I don’t know how effective they are at slowing the spread of the virus. I think they probably help a little, but I don’t know how much. For reasons I already talked about, I’m ready to get rid of masking requirements.

4) I agree with you that naturally developed immunity is the best immunity. But of course, there is a greater risk, especially to we older folks, in getting Covid while unvaccinated than for those who are vaccinated. Hospitalization rates, ICU use rates, and death rates all bear this out very convincingly.

This is the calculation I made, and I am satisfied with my choice.

5) On activism - As you know, I am an Independent. I am also an astute and informed voter.

Unfortunately, trying to meaningfully interact with my Representative in the House is impossible. I’ve tried it before. My representative is nothing more than a drone of the Democratic Party who I am convinced has never had an original thought in her whole life. My two Senators are no better.
None of them will ever go against Party doctrine. None of them will ever think on a level higher than a trained monkey. All I can do is vote against them, and I do.

Seth
 

Biggles53

New member
You agree with vaccine mandates, even when members
of your own family are not able to get vaccinated?
Correct….and so do they. After all, the more people who are vaccinated, the greater overall community protection from the virus. Herd immunity is just about all my granddaughter can rely upon at the moment, apart from isolation…
 

chris155au

Active member
The situation of not being vaccinated. Not all people who are unvaccinated made a choice. I have several people in my family who are unable to be vaccinated due to medical conditions. Call us dupes if you wish, but the rest of us consider it more than our duty to protect them as much as we can.
Will those members of your family be able to get an exemption?
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
1) Sometime within the next 13 years IS “sooner or later.” But you’re right that not every last living person on earth is going to get infected.
Personally, I'd say that over a decade was more later than sooner. But, I think that this point is more mute than relative. The point I was making, was that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to become infected with this virus. Sooner or later!! Nature just doesn't work like that.

We are talking about 98% of the world's population that hasn't even been infected for over 22 months. And, even if they were, there is still a 95%+ that they will survive and recover. So we are only talking about media hype, about a disease that is less lethal than the frick'n measles.

In Australia, 99.6% of the population hasn't even been infected in over 22 months. Yet Victoria, has been in lockdown longer than any place on the planet. We seem to be the most easily led, ignorant, and most impressionable people on the planet. If the government tells us that the sky is falling, then even if it isn't, we will rationalize that it soon will be!! I never thought that I would ever be ashamed to be an Australian.

3) On masks - I don’t know how effective they are at slowing the spread of the virus. I think they probably help a little, but I don’t know how much. For reasons I already talked about, I’m ready to get rid of masking requirements.
ANYTHING you do could be considered slowing down the spread of this virus. INCLUDING HOLDING YOUR BREATH, 3 times a day But is it a practical solution for preventing, or spreading this disease? Absolutely not. This phrase has no real meaning!

2) I am 66 years old. I am in good health for a man of my age, not perfect health. My body reminds me that I am aging every day. I’ve had pneumonia twice in my life, plus other issues over the years. Surely, if it weren’t for advances in medicine over the past hundred years, I’d be dead long ago.

OF COURSE I have no proof of how I would have faired against Covid without the vaccination!
We are NOT talking about the most lethal virus here. This is NOT HIV/Aids, dengue fever, smallpox, or the Ebola virus. This isn't even the original SARS virus. All are much more lethal than this mutated less-lethal form of SARS.

If you are a diabetic cancer victim, undergoing chemo, and battling pneumonia, no vaccine in the world is going to help you. The only thing that matters is the health/condition of your immune system. If it is fucked, than so are you! Are all of the body's defenses working correctly? Or, are your natural antibodies busy fighting other chronic illnesses? Is your immune system already weakened, or compromised? Remember, EVEN A FUCKING TOOTH DECAY CAN KILL YOU!

Why are kids under 12, NOT required to be vaccinated or wear masks? Do you think that this virus is "aged sensitive"?? My argument is NOT about people who want to take precautions. My argument is with being FORCED to take precautions!

4) I agree with you that naturally developed immunity is the best immunity. But of course, there is a greater risk, especially to we older folks, in getting Covid while unvaccinated than for those who are vaccinated. Hospitalization rates, ICU use rates, and death rates all bear this out very convincingly.

This is the calculation I made, and I am satisfied with my choice.
Since over 80% of those over 65 DO actually recover from this illness, the risk is an informed and relatively safe risk. The condition of our immune system is also based on other factors. NOT JUST AGE!! For those who are at extreme risk, being vaccinated is only an adjunct treatment. And, IMHO, will only weaken their immune system even further. Hence why many doctors advise against the critically ill being vaccinated.

Everyone will generally have the same risk factor of being infected by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and getting Covid-19. The virus doesn't pick and choose and discriminate. There are other factors that will determine who will be infected and who won't. So, unless you can show any direct causal links, to explain all of these rates, then you are just using the end data to imply causality. Of course these figures may have nothing to do with whether you were vaccinated or not. Similar to concluding that most dictators have beards or mustaches. Therefore, if you have a beard or a mustache, then you must be a dictator. This is just a simple logical fallacy. Also, are there two different death rate for unvaccinated and vaccinated victims?? Please post them. I'm curious why being vaccinated, will make you less likely to be hospitalized or die from Covid-19? I thought that this was only dependent on the condition and strength of our immune system.

5) On activism - As you know, I am an Independent. I am also an astute and informed voter.

Unfortunately, trying to meaningfully interact with my Representative in the House is impossible. I’ve tried it before. My representative is nothing more than a drone of the Democratic Party who I am convinced has never had an original thought in her whole life. My two Senators are no better.
None of them will ever go against Party doctrine. None of them will ever think on a level higher than a trained monkey. All I can do is vote against them, and I do.
Totally agree. But It is NOT about simply voting against them. It is more important, that they know WHY you are voting against them. Your message will resonate as a warning, throughout these moron's political circles. Your message will be heard and understood, loud and clear. Politicians are just overpaid actors playing a role. That's all. The everyday running of the government will continue without them. It is civil servants who run the government. Trump's entire tenure proves this. It is WE the people who are turning these over-paid actors into celebrities, NOT the government.
 

mothra

Administrator
Staff member
My granddaughter is an 8 year old cancer patient. She’s been receiving chemotherapy for the best part of 9 months. Her immune system is shot, so the vaccine is of no use for now. The family has virtually sealed itself off from the world in the interim, save for visits to the hospital…

So sorry to read that. My best wishes for you, her and all your family.
 
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