Civil war in the USA

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
The idea the government is constraining our liberties by protecting minorities from us, is fascism. It's not an attack on my freedom to require vaccination, it's a demand I participate in society. Our government is far from perfect, but the fascists hate it for the good things about it.
for some reason some sections of American media kept going on about how we were prisoners in our homes during covid. I think many Americans actually believe that
 
for some reason some sections of American media kept going on about how we were prisoners in our homes during covid. I think many Americans actually believe that
Look, I am autistic and I went through a period of lockdown without even noticing. I get other people are different and other people have homes not as big or nice as mine but all these arguments ignore a simple fact. however unpleasant lockdown might have been does not change that it saved lives
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
Me: "I wish i could impress on you that Antifa, BLM and others like them are a response to a very alarming rise of alt-right agitation,"

Seth: "BLM and Antifa are two completely different things with two different goals.

Antifa is just an extreme far-left movement that originated from a loose-knit community of anarchists and which has never deviated from those roots. They existed quite a long time before the BLM movement. The "anti-fascist" (Antifa) name is a fairly recent and clever name change. They believe in their hearts that our entire system of laws and economics should be violently torn down. The BLM movement didn't ask for their help. Instead, Antifa glommed on to the BLM movement as an excuse to do what they believe in which is to commit violence and destruction. We saw this with our own eyes in Portland, as black leaders implored Antifa to stop the destruction and violence. But, of course, Antifa ignored them.

What BLM seeks is police reform. What Antifa seeks is no police at all and the chaos that would ensue.

Now the temptation is to simply deny the truth about Antifa because they have a bizarre set of goals that make no sense to us. Civilized people don't want chaos and violence, and so we transfer that expectation to other people, even Antifa. It is hard to wrap our heads around the idea that anyone could wish to bring that upon their own country and citizens. But that's why they are the fringe. They are really no different in their mindset and attitudes than an extreme far-right Nazi supporter. Their propaganda is different, but they are not really much different from each other.



Apologies Seth, but that sounds very much like you're frightened that your bathroom is breeding Bolsheviks.

Antifa are not some ages old disrupters of social cohesion. Sure some of them say they are Anarchists but man, if i had a dollar for everything i doodled the Anarchist symbol on when i was young i'd no longer need to work.

Would it surprise you to know that i am one such "Anarchist"? That i've gone to alt-right protests in defiance?

And so have almost all of my friends.


I'd be willing to bet ya a beer you've never tried to assault the police, taken part in a mob beating a defenseless person or set a residential building on fire with residents in it.

And guess what? We are all tax paying contributors to society that love our kids and work within our communities to make them better places. Some of us are in politics, some in law, some in teaching, some in medicine, some in social welfare, some in the arts, some in IT .. etc.
These people that you dismiss as lawless and destructive are most probably the most altruistic and compassionate members of your community.
Great. I would gladly trade you yours for ours.
 
I'd be willing to bet ya a beer you've never tried to assault the police, taken part in a mob beating a defenseless person or set a residential building on fire with residents in it.
What made you think she was right wing, LOL!! She is not a Republican, she's not done that

Great. I would gladly trade you yours for ours.
Do you mean actual antifa or the bullshit that Tucker makes up to defend his Nazism?
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
Have a great day Seth .. or night, or whatever time it is over there.

I'd be particularly interested in what civil liberties you think our governemnt deprives us of.
For example, in the U.S. the freedom of assembly is specifically guaranteed in the Constitution. In Australia, if the government doesn't want people to assemble, they may be arrested. In fact, they can be arrested for organizing a protest before it even happens, like the pregnant Australian woman who was arrested and handcuffed in her home for trying to organize a protest, a violation of the Covid protocols. In the U.S., that would be a violation of the right to free speech and the freedom of assembly. And after one of those illegal protests, I remember reading the words of one of your police officials promising to track down every single protester who was there and arrest or fine them.

Checkpoints on your highways. Maximum distances you could travel. In the U.S. there must be probable cause to believe someone has committed a crime or an infraction for a person to be stopped as they travel along a roadway. And there are no restrictions whatsoever on state-to-state travel.

And I remember you posted that awful case of the abused woman who finally killed her abuser (her husband or boyfriend) who threatened to rape her juvenile daughter. She stabbed him to death and then dragged his dead body away from her home. She was acquitted of murder, but the Court saw fit to throw her in prison for (I forget how many years) for some ridiculous conviction of "disrespect to a corpse" or something like that.

And I suspected that your government just doesn't want people to defend themselves or their children from a rapist, "and by golly, if we can't convict her of murder, we'll still must punish her somehow." I'll bet the judge that threw her in prison had never been through the hell she had been through. "But never mind the hell she's gone through. She defended herself and her daughter, and we can't have people doing that and getting away with it."

I think that in the same circumstances there would be huge hue and cry if a judge did that in the U.S. Where was the huge hue and cry in Australia? In the U.S. we have a presumption that people do have a right to protect themselves from criminals and criminal acts. We don't think of it as usurping government authority to defend ourselves. But it seems to me that your government does think exactly that. I don't think she would have been arrested in the U.S., much less tried and imprisoned for "disrespecting a corpse."

In Australia you can't even carry an ordinary small pocket knife unless you can prove a specific work-related need for it. In the U.S. carrying firearms is regulated by the states, but not a handy little tool like a pocket knife.

In Australia you have compulsory voting and some sort of penalty if you don't. In the U.S. it would be nice if everyone voted, but we are not going to force anyone to vote who doesn't want to. Hell, in 2024, if the Republicans nominate Trump for president, I probably won't vote for a president. (Biden or Kamala are also out of the question for me.) So should I be arrested or fined? I don't have to worry about that here in the U.S.
 
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For example, in the U.S. the freedom of assembly is specifically guaranteed in the Constitution. In Australia, if the government doesn't want people to assemble, they may be arrested. In fact, they can be arrested for organizing a protest before it even happens, like the pregnant Australian woman who was arrested and handcuffed in her home for trying to organize a protest, a violation of the Covid protocols. In the U.S., that would be a violation of the right to free speech and the freedom of assembly. And after one of those illegal protests, I remember reading the words of one of your police officials promising to track down every single protester who was there and arrest or fine them.

Checkpoints on your highways. Maximum distances you could travel. In the U.S. there must be probable cause to believe someone has committed a crime or an infraction for a person to be stopped as they travel along a roadway. And there are no restrictions whatsoever on state-to-state travel.

And I remember you posted that awful case of the abused woman who finally killed her abuser (her husband or boyfriend) who threatened to rape her juvenile daughter. She stabbed him to death and then dragged his dead body away from her home. She was acquitted of murder, but the Court saw fit to throw her in prison for (I forget how many years) for some ridiculous conviction of "disrespect to a corpse" or something like that.

And I suspected that your government just doesn't want people to defend themselves or their children from a rapist, "and by golly, if we can't convict her of murder, we'll still must punish her somehow." I'll bet the judge that threw her in prison had never been through the hell she had been through. "But never mind the hell she's gone through. She defended herself and her daughter, and we can't have people doing that and getting away with it."

I think that in the same circumstances there would be huge hue and cry if a judge did that. Where was the huge hue and cry in Australia? In the U.S. we have a presumption that people do have a right to protect themselves from criminals and criminal acts. We don't think of it as usurping government authority to defend ourselves. But it seems to me that your government does think exactly that. I don't think she would have been arrested in the U.S., much less tried and imprisoned for "disrespecting a corpse."

In Australia you can't even carry an ordinary small pocket knife unless you can prove a specific work-related need for it. In the U.S. carrying firearms is regulated by the states, but not a handy little tool like a pocket knife.

In Australia you have compulsory voting and some sort of penalty if you don't. In the U.S. it would be nice if everyone voted, but we are not going to force anyone to vote who doesn't want to. Hell, in 2024, if the Republicans nominate Trump for president, I probably won't vote for a president. (Biden or Kamala are also out of the question for me.) So should I be arrested or fined? I don't have to worry about that here in the U.S.
OK, so a lot of this is bullshit. No one gets arrested for having a pocket knife, for example. In America, black men get killed for driving a nice car, so, I don't really agree.

Compulsory voting is powerful because it forces moderates to vote and stops the influence of extremism. I've failed to vote, I was not fined.

This is basically hyperbole
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
OK, so a lot of this is bullshit. No one gets arrested for having a pocket knife, for example. In America, black men get killed for driving a nice car, so, I don't really agree.

Compulsory voting is powerful because it forces moderates to vote and stops the influence of extremism. I've failed to vote, I was not fined.

This is basically hyperbole
Well then you can argue with the Australian members of this site. They were the ones who told me about voting under threat of punishment and about the pocket knives.
 

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
@SethBullock

I know you directed it at mothra but I'm going to jump in with my 2cents worth

For example, in the U.S. the freedom of assembly is specifically guaranteed in the Constitution.
tell those who had the storm troopers sent after them just so trump could have a photo with a bible

In fact, they can be arrested for organizing a protest before it even happens, like the pregnant Australian woman who was arrested and handcuffed in her home for trying to organize a protest, a violation of the Covid protocols.
she wasn't arrested for wanting to protest, she was arrested for breaching temporary public safety regulations after being warned she would be arrested if she persisted. She could have held whatever protest march she wanted once the health orders were lifted.

And don't pretend everyone can march wherever/whenever they want in the USA. We both know that's a load of bollocks.

Checkpoints on your highways. Maximum distances you could travel.
I've never heard off such a thing. I've driven over 1000km in one day and no one cared. There was no one to stop me doing another 1000km if I wanted to.

but the Court saw fit to throw her in prison for (I forget how many years) for some ridiculous conviction of "disrespect to a corpse" or something like that.
she was sent to prison for dragging the corpse through the streets. You cannot claim self defense once the corpse is dead. You have similar laws in the USA.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/13/flori...dragging-stephanie-shenefields-lifeless-body/

And I suspected that your government just doesn't want people to defend themselves or their children from a rapist, "and by golly, if we can't convict her of murder, we'll still must punish her somehow.
the govt. has no problem with people defending themselves. At no time has any official ever told me that if I am attacked I have to sit there and take it. Seriously, where do you get this stuff? Our laws mean that I am less likely t get attacked by someone with a knife or a gun otherwise defending myself might get more difficult.


In Australia you can't even carry an ordinary small pocket knife unless you can prove a specific work-related need for it. In the U.S. carrying firearms is regulated by the states, but not a handy little tool like a pocket knife.
Unlike the USA, we prefer our kids don't kill each other. You can carry a knife if you have a need for it. And guns laws are virtually non existent in some US states. I'm not sure thats something to be proud off


In Australia you have compulsory voting and some sort of penalty if you don't.
You have to mark your name off to vote. Once you get your paper you can eat it for all they care. A small price to pay for our freedoms. Unlike the US, where it's mostly the extremist who vote. That's precisely why you end up having to choose between Biden and trump. The parties have to appeal to the extremes.

I think a lot of your information about Australia is just plain wrong Seth. If you look at ranking on the human Freedom Index 2021, Australia has a rating of off 8.84, ranking it the 8th most free country in the world. The USA on the other hand has a rating off 8.73 with a ranking of 15.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country

Just another item we outrank you on :drinks
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
@SethBullock

I know you directed it at mothra but I'm going to jump in with my 2cents worth



tell those who had the storm troopers sent after them just so trump could have a photo with a bible


she wasn't arrested for wanting to protest, she was arrested for breaching temporary public safety regulations after being warned she would be arrested if she persisted. She could have held whatever protest march she wanted once the health orders were lifted.

And don't pretend everyone can march wherever/whenever they want in the USA. We both know that's a load of bollocks.


I've never heard off such a thing. I've driven over 1000km in one day and no one cared. There was no one to stop me doing another 1000km if I wanted to.


she was sent to prison for dragging the corpse through the streets. You cannot claim self defense once the corpse is dead. You have similar laws in the USA.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/13/flori...dragging-stephanie-shenefields-lifeless-body/


the govt. has no problem with people defending themselves. At no time has any official ever told me that if I am attacked I have to sit there and take it. Seriously, where do you get this stuff? Our laws mean that I am less likely t get attacked by someone with a knife or a gun otherwise defending myself might get more difficult.



Unlike the USA, we prefer our kids don't kill each other. You can carry a knife if you have a need for it. And guns laws are virtually non existent in some US states. I'm not sure thats something to be proud off



You have to mark your name off to vote. Once you get your paper you can eat it for all they care. A small price to pay for our freedoms. Unlike the US, where it's mostly the extremist who vote. That's precisely why you end up having to choose between Biden and trump. The parties have to appeal to the extremes.

I think a lot of your information about Australia is just plain wrong Seth. If you look at ranking on the human Freedom Index 2021, Australia has a rating of off 8.84, ranking it the 8th most free country in the world. The USA on the other hand has a rating off 8.73 with a ranking of 15.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country

Just another item we outrank you on :drinks
We’re going to go off “into the weeds” of details here, but what the heck, right?

Virtually all of our freedoms may be regulated as long as that regulation is not so deliberately onerous that it negates the right.

The White House, the Capitol Building, and all of the monuments and memorials are all on a piece of federal property. Over the years, many public demonstrations have been held on the property, in keeping with the spirit of the freedoms of assembly and speech. Those demonstrations may not be given a blanket ban, but they do have to go through an application for a permit.

Of course, those permits specify a start and end time.

A distinction is made between a demonstration (that has a start and end time) and camping. Camping is not allowed there.

Now with regard to the lady who your police arrested, I already understand why she was arrested, and we didn’t have our government in the U.S. doing that sort of thing. We saw many public marches and demonstrations during 2020, a time of masking and social distancing and fear of the pandemic. But we didn’t have the government banning them or using force or arresting pregnant mommies out of their homes, thanks to our pesky 1st Amendment.

Are you telling me you had no domestic travel restrictions as a result of the pandemic? There’s no way I can go through the hundreds of pages of conversations about Covid on the site in search of that particular thing, but I feel sure I read about it. Maybe @Shellandshilo1956 could weigh in here. I remember talk of checkpoints and that you couldn’t drive over a certain distance from your home without a good enough reason.

On the woman who killed her boyfriend, yes, we have a crime here called Abuse of a Corpse. It’s not a high crime. People don’t get thrown in prison for it. It’s usually a charge that’s tacked on to more serious charges. As an example, dismembering a body to aid in disposing the body of a murder victim is Abuse of a Corpse. But I would expect that a judge, after knowing all the facts of the case, and knowing that she was found not guilty of murder, would not vindictively throw her in prison. A fine or probation maybe, but not prison. And from my perspective, it signals a general governmental antipathy towards the right of the vulnerable to defend themselves against a stronger and criminal aggressor.

Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how it looks.

FTLW says no one gets arrested for having a pocket knife. Maybe it’s one of those laws the people and law enforcement just ignore. Maybe law enforcement treats that crime on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances. I kinda like it because I can make tongue in cheek remarks about cutting your steak in Australia with a plastic butter knife. :p

What can happen to you if you don’t “mark your name off to vote”?
 
I should hope it is waived! That same $30 could buy 4 delicious pints of fresh pale ale at one of my local brew pubs!

Time to sharpen your arrows and spears and tell the government “No more tyranny!”
The right have, of course, cooped Christianity, a left wing religion. A fundamental flaw of Christianity is that Christians love to be persecuted. So right wing people invent persecution for themselves, all the time
 

johnsmith

Administrator
Staff member
Now with regard to the lady who your police arrested, I already understand why she was arrested, and we didn’t have our government in the U.S. doing that sort of thing. We saw many public marches and demonstrations during 2020, a time of masking and social distancing and fear of the pandemic. But we didn’t have the government banning them or using force or arresting pregnant mommies out of their homes, thanks to our pesky 1st Amendment.

I don't know about the US, but here, once the govt. issues a public health order it becomes the law of the day. Like in the USA, she needed a permit if she wanted to march, especially if it was going to disrupt traffic etc, and that permit was always going to be denied because of the public health orders. There is no difference to the USA except that you have this idea that we were prisoners during lock down, which I can tell you couldn't be further from the truth

And from my perspective, it signals a general governmental antipathy towards the right of the vulnerable to defend themselves against a stronger and criminal aggressor.
the US has the highest incarceration rates in the developed world. Many for trivial matters. I'm not sure you're in any position to argue about govt. antipathy towards it's citizens. The woman you are defending didn't just hide a corpse, or dismember it so that she could more easily hide it that is actually understandable and makes sense even if it is slightly convoluted. The woman you are defending dragged the corpse through the streets tied to her car and then tried to hide the body in a ditch. It wasn't about protecting herself anymore, it was at first a public display and then an attempted to hide a crime. If she had called the authorities once she'd killed him that would more than likely have been the end of it. Revenge is not a self defense.

FTLW says no one gets arrested for having a pocket knife. Maybe it’s one of those laws the people and law enforcement just ignore
police use their discretion. If they find a 16 yr old with a knife (it has to be bigger than the width of the palm of your hand) with no reasonable reason for having it they'll give him a verbal warning and confiscate it. If the same person gets caught multiple times they'll may be issued with a fine. I don't recall hearing of anyone ever going to court for carrying a pocket knife.

What can happen to you if you don’t “mark your name off to vote”?
worst case scenario is that you get a $20 fine for first offenders. That may technically go up to $50 if it happens again but more often than not the fines are waived.
 

HBS Guy

Head Honcho 💉💉
Staff member
I deliberately did not vote one federal election. Got a letter saying I had a $20 fine. I could have not paid it easily enough but I paid it.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
Are you telling me you had no domestic travel restrictions as a result of the pandemic? There’s no way I can go through the hundreds of pages of conversations about Covid on the site in search of that particular thing, but I feel sure I read about it. Maybe @Shellandshilo1956 could weigh in here. I remember talk of checkpoints and that you couldn’t drive over a certain distance from your home without a good enough reason.
Seth, my partner and I were standing in a small que(4 people) in a Chinese super market. I looked out the window and saw 2 cops and 1 uniformed female Chinese "liaison" wannabe cop walking past us. This wannabe little shit saw me, and came into the market. She first stared at me, and then arrogantly told me(not asked) to stand 2 meters apart. She continued to lecture me, on how I could be killing people, and what a horrible, selfish, and inconsiderate person I was being. Even my partner couldn't stop me from ripping into this little shit. I was never more pissed-off about anything in my life. What pissed me off the most, was that she was not even wearing a mask!

The 3 hours detention and a $1,200 fine was more than worth it, IMHO. Regarding restrictions and mandates during the height of this manufactured medical madness, includes,

restrictions applied to leaving your home, except for getting the essentials(??)
the closing down of "non-essential" businesses and services
strongly encouraged to download locater/tracking apps to monitor our movements
FORCED to choose between getting vaccinated, or loosing your job
vaccine passports were required as proof of being vaccinated(not uninfected)
tens of thousands of people have lost their jobs
thousands of small businesses have closed their doors permanently
traveling interstate required proof of vaccination, and was enforced and monitored
checkpoints were manned at all borders crossings, to enforce compliance
international travel was restricted with few exceptions
all major economic employment industries were effected
the wearing of useless masks were mandatory, and would incur fines or imprisonment
two-meter distancing was mandatory, and could incur fines and imprisonment
Australia maintained the longest(Victoria) lockdowns than any other country in the world
density restrictions were imposed on the number of people allowed in the homes, shops, at parties, sports venues, funerals, weddings, in the car, etc.
Australians were encouraged to rat out on any Australians who was NOT complying
panic buying at supermarkets by hyped-up morons created a scarcity of popular goods.
Restricted access to parks, beaches, libraries, sports venues, shops, restaurants, gyms, etc.
Stay in home curfews were enforce with a maximum fine of $5,000 for non-compliance
arriving visitors were quarantined regardless if they tested positive or not for this virus
families couldn't visit loved ones in aged facilities, unless they had proof of vaccination
refused entry to shops, restaurants, theaters, etc., without proof of vaccination
people were labeled "antivaxxers" by the mob, to justify open bigotry and segregation.

These are just SOME of the "Orwellian" and immature solutions to stop this virus, that on its own, is less lethal than the fucking measle. Even the idea of man trying to stop any virus is insane! Clearly the impossible cure for this virus has been infinitely more harmful to the 95%+ of people who DON'T even have the disease(99% tested tested negative), than the fucking disease itself.

Every country in the world pities not only Australian's level of stupidity. But also its spineless level of servility. But for the hundreds of thousands of TRUE AUSTRALIANS with a backbone, who could clearly see through the manufactured hype, this wrong was eventually righted. And, we now have our freedoms back. True democracy in action! There are still some minor remnants of these restrictions left, but they are there to appease all the government sycophants who need to be told what to do! But as long as they stay voluntary, I don't give a shit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/world/australia/covid-lockdowns-freedom.html

Regarding voting in Australia. IT IS DEFINITELY COMPULSORY! In all Federal, State, and even local council elections, YOU ARE REQUIRED TO VOTE! If you don't vote, you have to make up a valid and sufficient story, elect to be prosecuted, or just pay a $20 fine THE FIRST TIME. After that, you need a better sufficient story or pay a $50 fine. Since you must keep making up excuses, paying fines, or electing to be prosecuted, voting in Australia is NOT a free choice(no matter how this non-choice is rationalized)! You can be fined even more for simply NOT REGISTERING TO VOTE!

But even in the US, there is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly says that any citizen has the right to vote in any election. Let along, that it is a constitutionally guaranteed right.

https://www.democracydocket.com/news/what-does-the-constitution-say-about-the-right-to-vote/

So, on the issue of the previous suspension/loss of Australian civil liberties, you are objectively and absolutely correct. However, you know my feelings on Antifa and BLM. I see no reason in discussing it again.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
@SethBullock

Seth, from my perspective, part of living in society and enjoying the overall freedoms granted to me by the society i live comes with some responsibility. Part of that responsibility is considering the well-being of my fellow citizens and contributing towards efforts to safe-guard them.

Covid has thrown up many dilemmas for our governments; federal, state and local. Over-all, the better performing ones through the pandemic followed the best advice from scientists, especially virologists and epidemiologists. Now, i don't expect every Australian to be all over the latest studies and reports so we rely on the government to keep up to speed.

There is no question that in places where control measures were implemented at a governmental level, less people succumbed to the disease, had severe effects from the disease or died from the disease.

I personally consider the infringement placed upon me and my loved ones throughout this period well worth the outcome. I'm generally pleased that most of my countryfolk agree with me.

Do you know how Australia compared to the US in regards to deaths per capita from Covid? Would you like a link?

But so long as your liberties aren't infringed upon, right?

The thing is, with everyone having all of these liberties, there's a propensity for liberties to overlap ... clash ... interfere and inhibit with each other. You're in a very real sense relying on people to be co-operative and altruistic. It seems to be failing in much of your country.

And may i emphasise again, i value the right to go to the hospital and be treated and provided with all of the services and medication they can offer over the right to bear arms. Or the right not to follow the advice from epidemiologists and virologists.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
@SethBullock

Seth, from my perspective, part of living in society and enjoying the overall freedoms granted to me by the society i live comes with some responsibility. Part of that responsibility is considering the well-being of my fellow citizens and contributing towards efforts to safe-guard them.
I agree with that.

Covid has thrown up many dilemmas for our governments; federal, state and local. Over-all, the better performing ones through the pandemic followed the best advice from scientists, especially virologists and epidemiologists. Now, i don't expect every Australian to be all over the latest studies and reports so we rely on the government to keep up to speed.

There is no question that in places where control measures were implemented at a governmental level, less people succumbed to the disease, had severe effects from the disease or died from the disease.

I personally consider the infringement placed upon me and my loved ones throughout this period well worth the outcome. I'm generally pleased that most of my countryfolk agree with me.

Do you know how Australia compared to the US in regards to deaths per capita from Covid? Would you like a link?

But so long as your liberties aren't infringed upon, right?
Mothra, when the pandemic hit us, it seemed reasonable to socially distance, wear masks, and avoid crowds. This is what we were told by the experts.

I think the difference between Australia and the U.S. is this:

In the U.S. the federal government could enforce those rules over the spaces they possessed, like military bases and federal buildings. Since they controlled those spaces, they could deny access to employees or visitors who would not comply. If a person refused to comply and leave the premise, they could be charged with a simple charge of Trespassing.

At the state level, Governors can and did use some powers that are granted to them by their state laws to impose certain temporary measures in the time of an emergency. Thus, they were able to use that power to restrict businesses, such as restaurants, entertainment venues, schools, and other non-essential businesses from opening. If a restaurant owner or other restricted business didn't comply, they could be fined under Health and Safety regulations.

But there were never any criminal penalties. No one was handcuffed and hauled out of their homes for organizing a protest, hauled out of their business and taken to jail for staying open, or given citations and fines for not wearing a mask or for taking part in a gathering of people.

And yet, hundreds of millions of Americans complied without the threat of arrest and prosecution.

So, you see, I am not saying that there shouldn't have been Covid protocols. But I am thankful for our Bill of Rights that says that:

First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It is because of these constitutional protections that no one - no pregnant mommies - got hauled out of their homes and off to jail in handcuffs for organizing a protest. It is also why we never heard our police stating categorically that they were going to track down every person who attended a protest and arrest them for violating Covid protocols.

So that's the difference.

And what bothers me is not the underlying reason (Covid) that your government was that oppressive, but that it has the ability to be that oppressive, and it's perfectly legal. But I'm an American, and that's just in our DNA as Americans.

The thing is, with everyone having all of these liberties, there's a propensity for liberties to overlap ... clash ... interfere and inhibit with each other. You're in a very real sense relying on people to be co-operative and altruistic. It seems to be failing in much of your country.
We're a hot mess.

And may i emphasise again, i value the right to go to the hospital and be treated and provided with all of the services and medication they can offer over the right to bear arms. Or the right not to follow the advice from epidemiologists and virologists.
Yes, I respect you thoughts on those things.
 
"But there were never any criminal penalties. No one was handcuffed and hauled out of their homes for organizing a protest, hauled out of their business and taken to jail for staying open, or given citations and fines for not wearing a mask or for taking part in a gathering of people. "

It's worth comparing deaths per capita during that time to understand the impact of that fact.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
"But there were never any criminal penalties. No one was handcuffed and hauled out of their homes for organizing a protest, hauled out of their business and taken to jail for staying open, or given citations and fines for not wearing a mask or for taking part in a gathering of people. "

It's worth comparing deaths per capita during that time to understand the impact of that fact.

My point exactly.
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
"But there were never any criminal penalties. No one was handcuffed and hauled out of their homes for organizing a protest, hauled out of their business and taken to jail for staying open, or given citations and fines for not wearing a mask or for taking part in a gathering of people. "

It's worth comparing deaths per capita during that time to understand the impact of that fact.
But you have to take something else into account. The continental U.S. covers 3.1 million square miles. Australia covers 2.9 million square miles. So the two land masses are very close in size. But the population of the U.S. is about 13 times larger than Australia’s population, 320 million to 25 million.

I have to believe that if Australia had a population of 320 million people, it would be exponentially more difficult to contain a pandemic.
 
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