Renewable energy developments

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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 08:46

Yes, renewables decrease the cost of power and the decrease in cost makes life hard for RE generators.

Some things seem obvious: that solar power station needs both storage (Big Battery is not storage, stuff like pumped hydo is storage) and it should be able to supply power to the local community, obviating the transmission losses. Our grid is just not set up like that. Things could be done to reduce transmission losses: privately owned grids like in SA suck!

What screams out is lack of direction from the Federal govt, bunch of luddites! Why the FUCK did idiots have to return this tired, vision and policy free divided and corrupt shambles? Death taxes? Libs did that cracking down on those on part pensions!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 06 Feb 2020, 11:09

I one gigawatt hour battery based on Tesla SA cost would be 700 million...(it cost 90 million for 129mwh)
so that's 356gwh over a year so at least 3560gwh over 10 years for it warrantee about 5000gwh over it's life time expectancy of 15 years...
According to the Lazard's Levelized Cost Of Storage report, capital costs for pumped storage projects around the world range from about $1.5 million to $2.5 million per MW installed.
One GWH of Pumped Hydro will cost 1500 to 2500 million dollars

It cost $70,000 for coal to make one GWH so that's 350 million just for the coal, then you need to factor in the price of the station and the huge ongoing maintenance and rebuilding every few years....

Also is a matter of time the Tesla battery took less than 100 days to be built once they got the go ahead, Hydro will take years and even lots of protest from those against dams even though the dams for Hydro are relatively small impact and cyclic...

I know I didn't include the Renewable energy source in this ,looking at costs Batteries are actually pretty good :)
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 06 Feb 2020, 11:18

Hydro Tasmania yesterday released initial details about the potential for pumped hydro in the state, identifying 14 possible sites across eight locations on the island.
Snowy 2.0 is one big project — connecting its massive Talbingo Reservoir to its Tantangara Reservoir with a 27-kilometre tunnel.
In terms of costs, based on its initial figures, Hydro Tasmania's plan is cheaper to build.
It would cost between $1.05 and $1.5 million per megawatt to build, while Snowy 2.0 is expected to cost between $1.9 and $2.25 million per megawatt.
Hydro Tasmania wants to develop enough sites to produce 2,500 megawatts, and Snowy 2.0 would produce 2,000 megawatts.
However, Snowy 2.0 can store more power, with its system holding 175 hours of energy storage, while Hydro Tasmania would have between eight and 36 hours.
CEO of Australian Renewable Energy Agency Ivor Frischknecht offered the analogy of a car: "Tasmania's battery of the nation provides us with a bigger engine as well as a slightly bigger fuel tank, but Snowy is more focused on the size of the fuel tank."

Also Pumped hydro needs maintenance on the huge pumps and turbines involved...

Tesla paid scientists just patented battery chemistry that will double the life of Lithium batteries, so a good 30 years before replacement now makes them even better value, also in the last 10 years lithium batteries halved in price, so by the time these batteries are in place they will be cheaper, Unless Hydro has some major engineering breakthrough their price will only increase...

The biggest hurdle to large scale batteries wont be price comparison it will be availability,,, but considering the years it will take to make the hydro maybe time wont be a issue for batteries.... :purple
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby Chuck » 06 Feb 2020, 13:35

karlrand wrote:
Chuck wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-28/ ... t/11903706

Not on the booze tonight!

Interesting but little mention is made of selling power into the grid at night from solar charged battery storage or the dirty denialist politics working behind the scenes for and on behalf of fossil fuel/oil/gas interests.
We also need to face the fact even academic economists have yet to figure out how to calculate the eventual costs of not moving to new power sources.

The following research work my even further dampen the viability of solar farms with respect to storage batteries, especially having a dramatic effect on the battery industry.

I envisage if this new solar panels prove to be viable, the new renewable power stations will only need batteries for 'Black Starts' situation when the grid collapses for some unknown reasons. Thus any future power station anywhere can perform as the black start generator
The only other possibility for the need of batteries is for ancillary provisions like balancing the transmission lines etc.

The minimisation in the use of batteries will be further protection for the environment from pollution caused by battery technology.
Less battery will be needed to be in a home solar setups and possibly the needs of large scale Tesla type of constructions, as the need for household evening demands from outside supply will reduce.

Probably influencing the viability of wind farms and thus reducing the environment footprints of both wind and solar farms footprints.

This newer solar panel will work in the dark and basically work in a reverse concept to the current solar panel's.

Solar panels, true to their name, don't technically work at night. But a California researcher claims he's found a way to keep them generating power long after the sun sets.

"A regular solar cell generates power by absorbing sunlight, which causes a voltage to appear across the device and for current to flow. In these new devices, light is instead emitted and the current and voltage go in the opposite direction, but you still generate power," Munday said in a statement. "You have to use different materials, but the physics is the same."
If his panels work, they could keep generating power without the need to store excess electricity in solar cell batteries or relying on fossil fuel-run power grids."


I've been keeping an eye in a company that produces glass that acts as solar panel for shopping centres etc.

Since retirement, I have contemplated to make my solar panels to be more productive, thinking in drunk haze, how can I replicate the sun during nighttime with certain types of lamps.

My aim was to turn on these lamps during the evenings and continue producing electricity to the grid. Considering the cost of running these lamps was less then what I received for inputting into the grid.

I alway hated the stupidity of not being able to run the household electrical goods if u had solar power during a power blackout - I talking about solar without batteries backup as some currently have.

Many electronic circuitry boards have usually a voltage and frequency reference circuit that compares whether the grid voltage exist and switch automatic to an alternative power source.

What I was contemplating was designing a circuit board that worked in a reverse manner providing necessary reference voltage and freq, isolating my premises from the grid until the grid voltage was restored. Of course, whilst in this isolated state, if the solar panels output dropped below the references, it would blackout my home also!

None of these eventuated, it was simply a concept whilst pissed.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby karlrand » 06 Feb 2020, 14:52

Chuck wrote:
karlrand wrote:
Chuck wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-28/ ... t/11903706

Not on the booze tonight!

Interesting but little mention is made of selling power into the grid at night from solar charged battery storage or the dirty denialist politics working behind the scenes for and on behalf of fossil fuel/oil/gas interests.
We also need to face the fact even academic economists have yet to figure out how to calculate the eventual costs of not moving to new power sources.

The following research work my even further dampen the viability of solar farms with respect to storage batteries, especially having a dramatic effect on the battery industry.

I envisage if this new solar panels prove to be viable, the new renewable power stations will only need batteries for 'Black Starts' situation when the grid collapses for some unknown reasons. Thus any future power station anywhere can perform as the black start generator
The only other possibility for the need of batteries is for ancillary provisions like balancing the transmission lines etc.

The minimisation in the use of batteries will be further protection for the environment from pollution caused by battery technology.
Less battery will be needed to be in a home solar setups and possibly the needs of large scale Tesla type of constructions, as the need for household evening demands from outside supply will reduce.

Probably influencing the viability of wind farms and thus reducing the environment footprints of both wind and solar farms footprints.

This newer solar panel will work in the dark and basically work in a reverse concept to the current solar panel's.

Solar panels, true to their name, don't technically work at night. But a California researcher claims he's found a way to keep them generating power long after the sun sets.

"A regular solar cell generates power by absorbing sunlight, which causes a voltage to appear across the device and for current to flow. In these new devices, light is instead emitted and the current and voltage go in the opposite direction, but you still generate power," Munday said in a statement. "You have to use different materials, but the physics is the same."
If his panels work, they could keep generating power without the need to store excess electricity in solar cell batteries or relying on fossil fuel-run power grids."


I've been keeping an eye in a company that produces glass that acts as solar panel for shopping centres etc.

Since retirement, I have contemplated to make my solar panels to be more productive, thinking in drunk haze, how can I replicate the sun during nighttime with certain types of lamps.

My aim was to turn on these lamps during the evenings and continue producing electricity to the grid. Considering the cost of running these lamps was less then what I received for inputting into the grid.

I alway hated the stupidity of not being able to run the household electrical goods if u had solar power during a power blackout - I talking about solar without batteries backup as some currently have.

Many electronic circuitry boards have usually a voltage and frequency reference circuit that compares whether the grid voltage exist and switch automatic to an alternative power source.

What I was contemplating was designing a circuit board that worked in a reverse manner providing necessary reference voltage and freq, isolating my premises from the grid until the grid voltage was restored. Of course, whilst in this isolated state, if the solar panels output dropped below the references, it would blackout my home also!

None of these eventuated, it was simply a concept whilst pissed.

I recenlty was surprised to learn that even if my solar panels are pumping out 1800 W DC if the mains power is interupted the entire system shuts down. Why when I’m able to generate MORE THAN ENOUGH POWER FOR MY NEEDS should the entire system shut down simply because of a mains blackout? Can anyone explain? My power company AURORA had no answer when I asked them . Is this something unique to my installation ( only four months old) or is this a feature of them all?
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 15:14

Problem with Tas Hydro and Hydro 2—southern states are drying up. Need to look to tropical north. The Burdekin could supply a metric buttload of water to the Darling, for irrigation etc.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby Chuck » 06 Feb 2020, 16:06

I recently was surprised to learn that even if my solar panels are pumping out 1800 W DC if the mains power is interupted the entire system shuts down. Why when I’m able to generate MORE THAN ENOUGH POWER FOR MY NEEDS should the entire system shut down simply because of a mains blackout? Can anyone explain? My power company AURORA had no answer when I asked them . Is this something unique to my installation ( only four months old) or is this a feature of them all?

I believe it is simply to avoid accidentally feeding back into grid causing further damage to the distribution system - simply another safety level
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 06 Feb 2020, 16:26

Chuck wrote:I recently was surprised to learn that even if my solar panels are pumping out 1800 W DC if the mains power is interupted the entire system shuts down. Why when I’m able to generate MORE THAN ENOUGH POWER FOR MY NEEDS should the entire system shut down simply because of a mains blackout? Can anyone explain? My power company AURORA had no answer when I asked them . Is this something unique to my installation ( only four months old) or is this a feature of them all?

I believe it is simply to avoid accidentally feeding back into grid causing further damage to the distribution system - simply another safety level

they are all like that...
I asked a electrical engineer friend of mine about it... He said without batteries there is to much variable on the load from the panels and it can damage your electrical goods, there was more but we had been sipping beers a lot.
The main excuse is because they don't want your power going into the grid it it's down and electrocuting the guys that need to fix it.
I asked why not just stop it at the box if the grid is down . The power being to variable was why my friend said they don't do it... :purple
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 06 Feb 2020, 16:31

HBS Guy wrote:Problem with Tas Hydro and Hydro 2—southern states are drying up. Need to look to tropical north. The Burdekin could supply a metric buttload of water to the Darling, for irrigation etc.

pumped hydro reuses the same water over and over so it can be a closed system, they are making one in the USA now where the dam is covered in solar panels, it supplies the energy to pump the water to the high reservoir and stops evaporation as well. :purple
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 06 Feb 2020, 16:34

Chuck wrote:
karlrand wrote:
Chuck wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-28/ ... t/11903706

Not on the booze tonight!

Interesting but little mention is made of selling power into the grid at night from solar charged battery storage or the dirty denialist politics working behind the scenes for and on behalf of fossil fuel/oil/gas interests.
We also need to face the fact even academic economists have yet to figure out how to calculate the eventual costs of not moving to new power sources.

The following research work my even further dampen the viability of solar farms with respect to storage batteries, especially having a dramatic effect on the battery industry.

I envisage if this new solar panels prove to be viable, the new renewable power stations will only need batteries for 'Black Starts' situation when the grid collapses for some unknown reasons. Thus any future power station anywhere can perform as the black start generator
The only other possibility for the need of batteries is for ancillary provisions like balancing the transmission lines etc.

The minimisation in the use of batteries will be further protection for the environment from pollution caused by battery technology.
Less battery will be needed to be in a home solar setups and possibly the needs of large scale Tesla type of constructions, as the need for household evening demands from outside supply will reduce.

Probably influencing the viability of wind farms and thus reducing the environment footprints of both wind and solar farms footprints.

This newer solar panel will work in the dark and basically work in a reverse concept to the current solar panel's.

Solar panels, true to their name, don't technically work at night. But a California researcher claims he's found a way to keep them generating power long after the sun sets.

"A regular solar cell generates power by absorbing sunlight, which causes a voltage to appear across the device and for current to flow. In these new devices, light is instead emitted and the current and voltage go in the opposite direction, but you still generate power," Munday said in a statement. "You have to use different materials, but the physics is the same."
If his panels work, they could keep generating power without the need to store excess electricity in solar cell batteries or relying on fossil fuel-run power grids."


I've been keeping an eye in a company that produces glass that acts as solar panel for shopping centres etc.

Since retirement, I have contemplated to make my solar panels to be more productive, thinking in drunk haze, how can I replicate the sun during nighttime with certain types of lamps.

My aim was to turn on these lamps during the evenings and continue producing electricity to the grid. Considering the cost of running these lamps was less then what I received for inputting into the grid.

I alway hated the stupidity of not being able to run the household electrical goods if u had solar power during a power blackout - I talking about solar without batteries backup as some currently have.

Many electronic circuitry boards have usually a voltage and frequency reference circuit that compares whether the grid voltage exist and switch automatic to an alternative power source.

What I was contemplating was designing a circuit board that worked in a reverse manner providing necessary reference voltage and freq, isolating my premises from the grid until the grid voltage was restored. Of course, whilst in this isolated state, if the solar panels output dropped below the references, it would blackout my home also!

None of these eventuated, it was simply a concept whilst pissed.

hehe for night charging your drunken haze was trying to make a perputual machine... probably why it never worked :stop
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 16:36

I suggested that reservoirs for the capital cities be covered by solar panel arrays: reservoirs are usually close to cities and the panels would decrease evaporation.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby karlrand » 06 Feb 2020, 16:52

HBS Guy wrote:I suggested that reservoirs for the capital cities be covered by solar panel arrays: reservoirs are usually close to cities and the panels would decrease evaporation.

Smart move if the panels can be fully rust proof. However I have my doubts about the cost of mounting a large array over deep water.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 17:57

Yeah, I know. Have to be fixed somehow—reservoir area shrinks and expands with rain or lack of and draw down of the water so floating panels a problem.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby Chuck » 06 Feb 2020, 18:19

DonDeeHippy wrote:hehe for night charging your drunken haze was trying to make a perputual machine... probably why it never worked :stop
There was nothing to fail, it never got pass the piss Inspired phase!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby Chuck » 06 Feb 2020, 18:22

HBS Guy wrote:I suggested that reservoirs for the capital cities be covered by solar panel arrays: reservoirs are usually close to cities and the panels would decrease evaporation.
I believe Lismore council already has panel arrays floating on their sewage treatment plant producing electricity.
Last edited by Chuck on 06 Feb 2020, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 18:40

Shitty electricity!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby Chuck » 06 Feb 2020, 18:53

DonDeeHippy wrote:The main excuse is because they don't want your power going into the grid it it's down and electrocuting the guys that need to fix it.
I asked why not just stop it at the box if the grid is down . The power being to variable was why my friend said they don't do it... :purple

Well, I felt that it should have been possible to stop it at what u call the box from feedIng into the grid.

My proposed circuit would deceive the inverter into believing that the grid was OK during a blackout and continue to function as normal whilst the solar panels continued to output sufficient voltage and being isolated from the grid.

I haven’t been following the household solar with batteries setup. Does anyone kno if these setup can still operate during a blackout on their own batteries, or do they need to sense the grid voltage and freq to remain operational.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 06 Feb 2020, 19:42

Tesla Powerwall paying for itself! First person to have one installed pays just $46/qrtr for power in his 4BR house:

https://www.domain.com.au/news/the-first-person-in-the-world-to-have-a-tesla-powerwall-battery-924164

They are a little more conscious of turning lights off when needed etc but “don’t go without” and they saved tons of carbon emissions too. Gee, I could go offgrid in that case!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 07 Feb 2020, 04:49

Chuck wrote:
DonDeeHippy wrote:The main excuse is because they don't want your power going into the grid it it's down and electrocuting the guys that need to fix it.
I asked why not just stop it at the box if the grid is down . The power being to variable was why my friend said they don't do it... :purple

Well, I felt that it should have been possible to stop it at what u call the box from feedIng into the grid.

My proposed circuit would deceive the inverter into believing that the grid was OK during a blackout and continue to function as normal whilst the solar panels continued to output sufficient voltage and being isolated from the grid.

I haven’t been following the household solar with batteries setup. Does anyone kno if these setup can still operate during a blackout on their own batteries, or do they need to sense the grid voltage and freq to remain operational.

yup they still work and do just that , if the grid is down they stop at the metre...
Even better the Tesla ones monitor the weather and if a big storm is brewing will let you know on your phone and you can change the settings on the unit remotely with you phone and make sure the battery pack is full so if the storm makes a blackout you have full battery...:purple
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Feb 2020, 05:59

It is weird that they won’t let you use your solar panels + battery in a blackout even if you stop current going to the grid.

I am hoping to have a set up of solar panels, 2 windmills, gas bottle for cooktop and oven + battery that I can be offgrid. Don’t need much heating in a strawbale house so a small wood fire is enough there—I could be offgrid. No electricity bills!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby karlrand » 07 Feb 2020, 06:14

HBS Guy wrote:It is weird that they won’t let you use your solar panels + battery in a blackout even if you stop current going to the grid.

I am hoping to have a set up of solar panels, 2 windmills, gas bottle for cooktop and oven + battery that I can be offgrid. Don’t need much heating in a strawbale house so a small wood fire is enough there—I could be offgrid. No electricity bills!

The cost of bottled gas in Tasmania for a cooktop and oven is going to shock you. Check first. My solution is to use gas only for the cooktop and electricity for the oven.
Hot water comes from a combination of rooftop panel and a system that extracts heat from the air, refered here as a ‘reverse heat pump’ by most of the locals.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby DonDeeHippy » 07 Feb 2020, 06:17

HBS Guy wrote:It is weird that they won’t let you use your solar panels + battery in a blackout even if you stop current going to the grid.

I am hoping to have a set up of solar panels, 2 windmills, gas bottle for cooktop and oven + battery that I can be offgrid. Don’t need much heating in a strawbale house so a small wood fire is enough there—I could be offgrid. No electricity bills!

You keep using power if you have battery backup Monk, no power if only solar panels....

You love gardening so maybe get a methane tent, the are basically a compost heap in a tent and it can pipe the methane to your gas cooker.....
I did post about them here last year... If your interested I could find the links again.... :purple
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Feb 2020, 08:26

Yeah, would like to see those. Maybe not for cooker but to heat a greenhouse at night maybe—was thinking just having a compost heap in the greenhouse would be enough.

Started asking re permissions and whether I can extend the greenhouse past the building line. Bit more complicated than the pergolas—should have expected that as a greenhouse has a solid roof albeit only a sheet of poly (probably) with the first 500mm maybe solid sheets to allow the vines to be planted outside and trained to grow into the greenhouse.

Good thing that I started now tho: if it can’t go past the building line/stick out past the front of the house I will have to put it in the back or make it 2-3 connected greenhouses running from the side fence towards the house. Eight metres space there less 900mm fire separation and the the first vines can be 2m from the house so 5m from side fence to house and, assuming have to stay inside the building line, 12 – 4.5 = 8.5m wide = 42.5sqm. 2 rows of 3 vines but lots of canes so lots of grapes.

Built up beds for veges that can’t handle a Tassie winter—fill with composted manure etc—no dig gardening. Parterre potager the same—fuck digging all that clay!
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby karlrand » 07 Feb 2020, 10:24

HBS Guy wrote:Yeah, would like to see those. Maybe not for cooker but to heat a greenhouse at night maybe—was thinking just having a compost heap in the greenhouse would be enough.

16 years ago when I first moved down here I’d have advised you differently . The frosts then were epic. Soil could be frozen down to the roots of veg for a week.
We still get frost in the mid Nth but they’re nowhere near as severe so things are changing fast. They had snow here almost every year but now only once in those 16 years so it’s a whole new ball game changing at who knows what pace. The people I’d speak to are those who grow grapes. The owner of Three Willows Vinyard has his finger on the pulse. (makes great plonk too) https://3willows.com.au
If I had the capital I’d buy him out. His ‘Old Block’ white would make a fabulous champagne (oops! We’re not allowed to call it that anymore) er - bubbly white - doesn’t sound the same.
Whilst on the subject of booze in Tasmania the owner of the Pinot shop in Launceston is extremely knowledgable both on production and the finished product. Well worth a visit. https://www.pinotshop.com. Put yourself on her mailing list, a great way to learn about Tasmanian wines.
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Re: Renewable energy developments

Postby HBS Guy » 07 Feb 2020, 19:03

Ta! Added both those to my notebook for my Sep-Oct visit.
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