russia

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
That seems rather fanciful. Look, the erstwhile Soviet Union tried to join NATO. Before Putin. Of course, it was seen by NATO as a way by the Soviets to neutralize the alliance in much the same way the West was being frustrated by the Soviets in the UN security council. The Soviets,however, saw it as a way of maintaining world peace. NATO rejected the overture. Shortly after the Warsaw Pact was formed.

When Putin took over sometime after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and after the fall of the Berlin Wall, he did see Russia as a European country and wanted to join. NATO, euphoric from the fall of the Berlin war, did not see Russia as an equal, thought they had the Russians on the run, and contemptuously told him to join the queue. NATO's raison d'etre was the Soviets and is Russia. You could hardly have the "enemy" upon which your existence predicated, join.

The US has since the WW2 had it's intent fixed on rolling the Soviets and Russia. And NATO is a US sock. The US has been trying to encircle Russia much the same way as they've done to China. It's no secret. And they've been constantly upping the ante. Russia had been telling them to knock it off and for a long time had been seeking a new mutually beneficial security deal. That wasn't in US/ NATO DNA.

They've been knocking Russia from pillar to post with their aggressive expansion. They tried to get Georgia on board. Right at the Russian doorstep. Russia told them to back-off. Did they listen, no. They supported and incited a colour revolution to install a Western friendly leader in the Ukraine.

The West knew it was causing trouble by moving to take the Ukraine into its sphere. There are communiques documenting that. The Ukraine was Russia's Cuba.

And look what the Americans did there. So intolerable was it that they had Soviet missiles on their doorstep, and whilst overlooking the fact that they had first placed missiles in Turkey, threatened to engulf the world in a nuclear holocaust.

The West is using Ukraine as a battering ram against Russia. The Russians had warned and warned and it all fell on deaf , hegemonic ears.

And here we are today. If the West co-operated this shit show in the Ukraine could have been averted.

This petulant, crazy, Soviet resurrecting Putin theory, imho, just doesn't stack up against real world events. It's more like the West (US) wanting undisputed, unchallenged world domination.
I certainly can't add much to your well-said comments. But I'd like to point out just how remarkable Kennedy really was. In spite of all the "war-mongering" advice by his Chief of Staff, the Generals of his Joint Chief of Staff, his Cabinet, his ExComm's(14 hand-picked advisers), and even the risk of a public opinion backlash, Kennedy chose to guaranine (blockade) Cuba. To be fair, he initially agreed that the missiles should be bombed, and that Cuba should be invaded. But a week later he changed his mind. He trusted his logic, and not the self-serving emotions of others.

He was truly a remarkable leader during this nuclear crisis. He was the only one to question WHY Russia was doing this in the first place. I loved what Kennedy said to his aid about those "brass hats"(generals),

These brass hats have one great advantage in their favor,” President Kennedy sardonically remarked to his aide Dave Powers: “If we listen to them and do what they want us to do, none of us will be alive later to tell them that they were wrong.”.

Of course they WERE wrong. Khrushchev's deal with the US, was that if the US remove all of its nuclear missiles from Turkey, and to NOT invade Cuba, that he would remove all Russian missiles from Cuba. Crisis averted, and millions of lives saved. Also to note, that if the US had invaded Cuba, it would have been a massacre. Their intelligence said, that there were only 10K Russian troops there. But there were 43K. Kennedy was a true Presidential leader. And a cardinal example of what true leadership looks like. Wonder what decisions a Conservative Republican president might have made? John Wayne comes to mind. And, Oops!

 

Linus

Member
It looks like countries supporting the Ukraine are starting to get fatigued over the blowback this war is having on their economies, not to mention dismayed over the existential crisis for Ukraine.

Europe is now worried that Putin might turn off the gas altogether, and this is on top of the disruption of Covid. Inflationary pressures are mounting and shortages in food, fuel and fertilizer amongst other commodities coming from both Ukraine and Russia are biting, especially in poorer nations like Sri Lanka.

Sri Lanka might be the canary in the coal mine. Imagine if other relatively tenuous countries fold. Are we ready for the ensuing mayhem in our region and beyond? Pakistan is faltering and it's nuclear.

Meanwhile, Anthony Albanese has pledged $100m in military hardware to Ukraine. One former senior US military official thinks this is just adding fuel to the fire that may extend to countries beyond the Ukraine and possibly end the Ukraine as state.



All of this could have been avoided if the West had genuinely sat down with Russia and negotiated a mutually satisfactory security deal rather than try to roll it by using Ukraine as a proxy.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
It looks like countries supporting the Ukraine are starting to get fatigued over the blowback this war is having on their economies, not to mention dismayed over the existential crisis for Ukraine.

Europe is now worried that Putin might turn off the gas altogether, and this is on top of the disruption of Covid. Inflationary pressures are mounting and shortages in food, fuel and fertilizer amongst other commodities coming from both Ukraine and Russia are biting, especially in poorer nations like Sri Lanka.

Sri Lanka might be the canary in the coal mine. Imagine if other relatively tenuous countries fold. Are we ready for the ensuing mayhem in our region and beyond? Pakistan is faltering and it's nuclear.

Meanwhile, Anthony Albanese has pledged $100m in military hardware to Ukraine. One former senior US military official thinks this is just adding fuel to the fire that may extend to countries beyond the Ukraine and possibly end the Ukraine as state.



All of this could have been avoided if the West had genuinely sat down with Russia and negotiated a mutually satisfactory security deal rather than try to roll it by using Ukraine as a proxy.
I have warned about the obvious consequences of any country aiding the Ukraine in fighting the Russians. All these interfering countries are doing, is prolonging the conflict, increasing the number of body bags, weakening their own economies, and promoting a fantasy/improbable outcome that has "Buckley's chance of happening. Did any of these countries think that Russia would never had the resolve to reach its objective? The Ukraine government WILL fall! And, a new Western narrative will be created to appease the gullible and disappointed.

Unfortunately, if America told the world that putting shit on toast, is much better than vegemite, it would soon be on the Australian menu. People just make assumptions to rationalize their own bias. Namely, Russia is the guilty bully, and the Ukraine is the innocent victim. History has shown the Russians repeatedly what happens to countries that are encircled by western-sympathizing NATO-controlled countries?

Why are people so quick to ignore the events of the past? Why are people/governments so objectively vacant, and intellectually lazy?? Maybe the truth will be in the movie version of this war!:nah
 

SethBullock

Captain Bullock
Staff member
@Linus @Shellandshilo1956

As Russia was beginning to amass troops near the border with Ukraine, what was needed to avert war was U.S. leadership. What was needed was a U.S. president who would meet with Putin in Russia or in some neutral location and who could pound out a peace deal. Perhaps something akin to a three-way treaty between NATO, Russia, and Ukraine that permanently excluded Ukraine from NATO, but that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. What was needed was a U.S. president who could think and negotiate independently and who didn't care about the optics of meeting with and dealing with Putin.

We don't have that kind of leader. He has never shown that kind of leadership in his entire political career, and he never will. And so, here we are.
 

Shellandshilo1956

Active member
@Linus @Shellandshilo1956

As Russia was beginning to amass troops near the border with Ukraine, what was needed to avert war was U.S. leadership. What was needed was a U.S. president who would meet with Putin in Russia or in some neutral location and who could pound out a peace deal. Perhaps something akin to a three-way treaty between NATO, Russia, and Ukraine that permanently excluded Ukraine from NATO, but that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial sovereignty. What was needed was a U.S. president who could think and negotiate independently and who didn't care about the optics of meeting with and dealing with Putin.

We don't have that kind of leader. He has never shown that kind of leadership in his entire political career, and he never will. And so, here we are.
What was needed was NATO and the West not to ignore over a decade of warnings by Russia. And, for NATO to stop extending its security umbrella across Russian borders. What was needed was for the West and NATO to honor the Warsaw Pact agreement, and other promises made to Russia. The US is very good at smoke-and-mirror diplomacy and theatrics to justify the ends. No country trusts the US. And, NATO is controlled by the US. Have you ever thought why all NATO countries are Democratic? I bet you Russia has.

Since ALL US presidential administrations have ignored Russia's warnings and legitimate concerns, this war is NOT partisan. But, you are right Seth! You don't have any honest uncorrupt leaders to call on. And, have never had since Kennedy(although Obama was the lesser corrupt). What the supporters of partisan politics did to Tulsi Gabbard, only proved that you don't want a leader who can actually inspire the world. And still be totally committed in solving urgent social problems. You just want someone to protect the status quo, protect the privileged and the entitled, and to keep you entertained for another 4 years with more creative excuses.

 

Linus

Member
Zelenski is having a bad-hair day. It seems he's identified moles within the highest levels of Ukraine's security apparatus.


 
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